S2E5: Storytelling in Healthcare and Leadership with Dr. Sarah Smithson, MD, MPH
Rahul
Welcome to Learning to Lead, a podcast about leadership, teamwork, and reimagining healthcare. This podcast is for learners, educators, and healthcare professionals interested in building leadership skills in a supportive community.
We are your hosts Rahul Anand, Maya Doyle, Peter Longley, Amber Vargas, and Brooklynn Weber.
Together we bring you conversations with emerging and established leaders, deep dives and hacks to help you become the best leader you can be.
Rahul
Welcome back to Learning to Lead. Our guest today is Dr. Sarah Smithson, an internal medicine physician and co-founder of Relational Leadership Partners (RLP), an organization devoted to human-centered culture change in healthcare teams and systems. Sarah is an expert in leadership development and team-based care within and across professions and health systems innovation. Prior to founding RLP, Sarah served as the Co-CEO and Vice President of Partnerships for Intent Health Strategies, was the Assistant Dean for Clinical Education and Director for Interprofessional Education and Practice at the UNC School of Medicine while delivering primary care for over a decade. Sarah earned a dual MD MPH degree from Emory University and completed internal medicine residency at Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston. Sarah, it's an honor to have you with us. Welcome.
Sarah
Thank you, Rahul. So happy to be with you all.
Rahul
Also with us today is Dr. Rebecca Zucconi. Rebecca is an OB GYN trained physician and faculty at the Netter School of Medicine. We fondly call her as our chief storytelling officer, and Rebecca will return in a follow-up episode bringing these concepts home and showing us storytelling in action live in our community. Rebecca, welcome.
Rebecca
Thank you, and thanks for inviting me to be part of this today
Rahul
And with us today. As always are Pete.
Pete
Hello everyone.
Rahul
Maya.
Maya
Hi everybody.
Rahul
And Brooke.
Brooke
Hello.
Rahul
So Sarah, we're excited to dive into this conversation on storytelling with you. Let's just begin with talking about what a story is.
Sarah
I thought it might be helpful to frame the beginning with a story. I know you mentioned that many listeners are students and trainees, and so as I was thinking about coming here to be with you all, it took me back to actually being a fourth year medical student myself. So will that work, if I start with the story and then we'll break it down a little bit. I was thinking about when I was a fourth year medical student and how I had this laser focus, which I think is not unique among medical students, but this laser focus for me was of course about achieving the best match that I could in categorical internal medicine. So I remember putting on my suit and grabbing my leather portfolio and traveling from program to program to interview. And I was doing this all in the context of the personal statement that I had written and the personal statement that I wrote reflected on a specific moment during the year that I got my Master's in Public Health between my third and fourth years of medical school.
And I was working on a group project with a partner. We were doing work on life expectancy, and I remember the two of us sitting there pouring over data on our computers and suddenly he said, oh, I know why there are more elderly women than elderly men. It's because the elderly men felt so much stress providing for the women while the women spent 60 years on the couch. And I'm still looking down. And I thought, oh, well, he must be kidding. And I looked up and saw his face and realized he was not kidding, he was being genuine. And in that moment I realized we were going to have really different perspectives and it was going to be really important for the success of our work together for us to find our complimentary skillsets rather than dwell in that conflict. And so in my personal statement, I wrote about how that was my approach to not only clinical practice, but I was really hoping to take that approach beyond the clinical into administrative roles.
So I'm traveling around to my interviews and I go to one particular interview in the southeast and I walk in, there's this big imposing wooden desk. The walls are aligned with diplomas and books, and the attending who's a leader in the health system is asking me questions I've answered along the way over and over, pretty comfortable. And then midway through, he leans forward on his elbows and looks me squarely in the face and says, very seriously. Now what I really want to know is what makes you think you can be a department chair when you're not even a resident yet? And I felt so taken aback. I thought I had done something wrong and what I had written in my personal statement and in that moment I thought, okay, laser focus best match I can. I moved that program down on my wish list and just kept going a few weeks later at what I know is a reach program for me.
So a program, it's not a given, I'm going to match there. I'm thrilled to have an interview. And I walk into my interview with the program director. We're sitting side by side and he's holding my application in his hands and he looks at me and he says, I think you are a great primary care applicant. And I genuinely looked at him and said, what's primary care? And he was so generous to explain not only primary care to me, but to tell me that they have a primary care track that's attached to their traditional categorical program that trains future leaders in population health. And he said, you should come back and interview on a primary care day. And so I walked out and I thought, gosh, well, I don't know. Do I want to make a whole nother trip? This is a big commitment. I've already been traveling.
It's so expensive. This isn't categorical, and who even knows what primary care is anyway? And I didn't know anybody else pursuing this path, but the more I thought about it, I thought, okay, I'll give it a shot. So I scheduled into their very last interview day, and I literally remember I'm wheeling my suitcase down, the salt crested sidewalk that January and I had traveled so much, the wheels of my suitcase started falling apart, like little bits of plastic are shooting out down the sidewalk behind my suitcase, which felt very analogous to how I felt in the whole interview process. And then I walked in with the residents in this program. Oh man, it was just like when you go into a room and you just feel the energy in that space and it fills you up. That's how it felt. My interview with an alum from that track, the time flew.
I called my husband between interviews. I was just so excited. It felt like I was home. And so match day came and I thought, what if it was just me? What if they didn't feel that same connection? And I remember the clock strikes noon and I'm holding my envelope. I still have that envelope. So Brooke, keep it when you get it, file it away, but I still have it. And I slid the seal open and pulled out the paper and saw the name of that program on my match sheet, and I mean, just almost cried with relief and happiness. And that match really set me on a trajectory for my career. And I realized that no, it was not where my leisure focus was. It was not my original plan, and ultimately it turned out to be even better than I could have thought.
Rahul
So let's talk about the story itself. As we're listening to these wonderful stories, what are the elements or the components of a story as you're looking to put together a good story?
Sarah
Yeah, great question, and I think you all, and probably many of the listeners will know, there's no single framework for stories. So I think to find a framework that resonates with you and then build on it over time is a good recipe for bringing stories more consistently into your life. The one that has resonated with me, which credit to the person who trained me on storytelling, who's Matt Lewis, who now is working at Oregon Health and Sciences University in Portland, co-leading their Relate Lab there, we would often lovingly joke with him, he has his PhD in storytelling. And he learned from Marshall Ganz at the Kennedy School who uses a framework of challenge, choice, and outcome. And thinking about stories in this context as a tool for sharing our values. I mean, I think when you're thinking about telling a story, one of the questions you want to ask yourself is what is your goal?
And whatever your goal is, that's kind of where you want to end. And so that can help you then think about, well, who am I telling this story to? And therefore, what is the right story? What is the story that gets me where I want to end? And what is the story that might most resonate with the people that I'm talking to? And then you can reflect back, ideally on a moment in your life or a time period where you can identify a challenge, a choice, and the outcome within that arc. What you hope your listener will hear are your values and hear more about you than you could ever just say, like Rahul, if I had said I'm adaptable, when change and opportunity presents itself, you probably would've been like, oh great, Sarah, that's awesome. Which is different than you hearing it in the context of a lived moment in my life.
Rahul
Yeah, definitely. So you are choosing which story to tell me and what value it portrays.
Sarah
Yeah. This gets to actually an important point about stories, which is about the relative power of stories. So when we hold the microphone or when we're observing whomever's holding the microphone to tell a story, I think it's important for us to recognize that that storyteller holds a certain power in the space. They are getting the opportunity to share their perspective, their experiences with whomever is listening. There is a powerful author, Chimamanda Adichie, who has a great Ted Talk, Maya, I see you nodding, yeah, about the danger of a single story. And so we do want to be careful either as we are telling stories or we're listening to stories about others, that we don't take that one singular story to be the definitive definition of who they are as a whole, right? And especially when we're working with other people who come from different places, different professions have different perspectives. Stories are really an opportunity for us to exhibit our curiosity to share about ourselves, but to invite a multitude of stories from them as well so that we start ideally to break out of, especially in healthcare, some of the stereotypes that can come naturally with a hierarchy that is so pervasive around us. So Rahul, I love that you brought up those values that are highlighted and it gives us the opportunity to think about story as a dialogue to really engage with others and learn more about them than just a singular definition.
Rahul
So you work a lot with healthcare professionals in storytelling, probably one of the foremost people teaching storytelling to healthcare professionals. Tell us what are all the places that storytelling show up in education and healthcare? And I'll point out, you started with the personal statement.
Sarah
Anytime you're trying to convey who you are or what's important to you, storytelling has value. We are humans who by design we thrive on stories. We also need data, right? But data without story is not likely to motivate change and engagement. So basically any situation where you want to connect with others and or motivate and sustain change, storytelling is a really essential element in your toolbox. So it can be in formal settings like the ones we've talked about, personal statements, interviews. It can be if you are going to be teaching at the front of a room, you're going to be giving a keynote. These are all moments where you have an opportunity to plan, to think again about your goal and your audience. Those are valuable, but more formal aspects of storytelling. And some people would argue, I'm glad some people would argue with what I'm about to say because if we all agreed all the time, life would be really boring.
But I think there are really, you can take down to little anecdotes of what you did over the weekend or asking people who you work with, what they did over their weekends. What comes out is a little story, and that little story is an opportunity for connection. Now, it may not be a life-changing moment, but that's not always what we're talking about in these kind of micro story, micro connection moments that can happen throughout the day. So I think a classic example in healthcare is if you are on a unit or you're in a clinic, chances are whatever your role is, you're very busy because we know healthcare is chaotic and there are a lot of pressures on our time taking that extra moment, my perspective as a physician, as I'm walking into the unit and maybe I see the nurse who's caring for our shared patient, I could go up with my check boxes and say, we need to do this and this and this.
How would it feel differently if I walked up? And first I said, how's it going today? Genuinely? I mean, that's a key piece of storytelling. It has to be authentic. It has to feel genuine to you, which means this is a tool that you have to adapt to what feels right to you. Because if you try to tell a story or ask someone else how they're doing and you're not authentically trying to connect with them, that is going to come through loud and clear and you can actually do more harm than good with that kind of interaction. So I think stories as a vehicle in that moment of, let me pause and take a breath. I know I have my checklist, but more importantly what I have before me is a colleague who I care about. I have no idea what's going on for them in this moment.
Let me just pause and see how they're doing, how they're coming into this space. What tends to come out of that pause is a little story. And then I would say gauge here. A story is a gift, a little offering to you, and you can decide how to receive it. Sometimes the best way to receive it is just to kind of take it in, listen, absorb, maybe ask some follow-up questions and thank them. Sometimes you may feel like, oh my gosh, yeah, me too. And you really want to share with them in the moment. This is a bit nuanced, and so just kind of keep your antenna up for, is this a moment when I should also share back, or is this a moment for inviting story from someone else and taking it in as a gift?
Rahul
I love how you've spent so much time talking about how to receive and honor the stories from others. Let's just start there and then we'll circle back to the use of storytelling as leaders in our spheres of influence.
Maya
Sarah, I just want to respond to that, that I think it's a good reminder if we're going to ask folks, how are you, what's going on? What's happening? We have to be prepared to listen to it. We tend to use that as sort of a quick cliche, hello, rather than if we're asking, we have to ask in a way that we're really going to then catch a breath and listen.
Sarah
Absolutely. And you can think about these moments of connection like little pebbles over time. So if you've asked this person before and for instance that maybe they have a child going off to college, you can say, how's it going? Is everything packed up again with genuine interest and in service of connection? And I think the real power of this is that then inevitably when one of us missteps, when us doesn't answer the message, doesn't answer the electronic message or the page or the text, or is having a bad day and kind of brushes that other person off, typically what we get is grace from them. We have a background of knowing like, oh, we're invested in each other, we care about each other. I know that that's not how Sarah usually is. So something must be going on in the context of healthcare delivery where errors and patient care is on the line. That moment of grace can be the difference between a good outcome or a suboptimal outcome for a patient, which in turn is the same for us. None of us want to show up and make a mistake. So if we're able to offer each other grace and be more connected with each other, in my mind, that's ultimately in service of our true north of delivering great care for patients.
Rahul
I love that. So the first leadership tip coming here is if you want to be a better storyteller, learn to look for listen for and honor other stories. Alright, and then to come back to what you were mentioning about uses of storytelling in leadership, so I'm picking up at least three themes in what you're telling us. There's probably more. The first one as we talked about the personal statement and your stories is using stories to share one's own values or how you dealt with key challenges yourself, and we would call that the story of self, let's say. So you're choosing these moments to convey key information about challenges that you faced and where do we use those kinds of stories the most?
Sarah
Those kinds of stories you can use in a lot of spaces. We've talked about the formal spaces. I think again, when you're connecting with others, with colleagues, with patients, I will say the question that I usually ask myself, especially if this is in the context of sharing with a patient, is what is my motivation for sharing this story? If my motivation is because I want the other person to say, oh my gosh, Sarah, I'm so sorry to hear that. If I'm seeking support from them, that is not the right motivation to share a story in service of connection. If my true motivation is to draw a link and ultimately connect with that other person, including with a patient, then I think I'm more on the right track. And sometimes, especially with a patient, you may want to pause and ask permission and say, this makes me think of an experience that I've had too. Is it okay? Do you mind if I share with you? Right. And then if you do share to say, I would love to hear, how does that feel to you? Does it feel similar or am I off? That's almost like reflecting back to the patient what they said to you and then asking for clarification. So even if you're off the fact that you're saying, what do you think you're offering them that opportunity to say kind of, but not really. You're getting really important information as a clinical caregiver in that context.
Rahul
I've also seen some folks use these stories of self, not of the moments that have gone brilliantly, but maybe of a situation where things did not go well and then trying to share that to create trust or show their vulnerability or maybe show the other person that I suffered. But my intention and value here is that you don't suffer and we can talk about what you can do so that you don't have to go through the same outcome.
Sarah
Absolutely. I think especially when we are working in teams, if you are in a leadership position in that team, and it doesn't have to be a formal leadership position, right? When you show up on a team, you're influencing the way that team feels. You are part of the group that is setting the culture for that team. I mentioned that telling a story is offering a gift, telling a story about where something went wrong is maybe one of the most vulnerable gifts that you can offer. And I do want to say being able to share a story about a time when something went wrong implies that you have a certain level of safety, maybe a certain level of relative power within that team. Not everyone is going to show up in the same space and have the same relative safety to be able to share with vulnerability.
The other thing, again, credit to Matt Lewis, I love when he says, tell your stories from your scars, not from your wounds. Meaning if you're going to share a vulnerable story, make sure that it's something that you yourself have had time to process so that you can share it with confidence and you can be reassuring the person or people you're sharing the story with. I'm okay, I'm sharing this to help us as a team or to share so that as you said, rule holes so that hopefully things will be better for you when you're sharing from your wounds. Sometimes it's just too fresh and that ends up being, again, like you're seeking support from those around you, which can be appropriate, but not when we're thinking about story as a leadership tool.
Rahul
That's well put. Yeah, and you also bring up a good point that being authentic isn't easy and it needs a lot of trust and safety and sometimes even a certain element of power in that group or relationship because there's always the tension of fake it till you make it when you're the newbie versus being authentic when you're secure in that space.
Sarah
And I do want to say, don't feel like you have to wait to start trying this until you've got it perfected, right? That's not what I want to communicate. If you want to start trying to use stories more, find people around you who you feel relatively comfortable with and say, Hey, I'm trying a new thing. So would love your feedback about how this goes and know you're going to make mistakes. Things are not going to go that well. Guess what? That is also you sharing a bit of your vulnerability and it's simply going to invite those around you to do the same thing. And then collectively, you're going to grow and learn together. So again, depends on your perspective, but even when things don't go well, you can always be learning and growing.
Rahul
Thank you.
Rebecca
I have a question for you, Sarah. This is Rebecca At this time of the year, it's mid-August and I work with a lot of fourth year students and I'm reading over a lot of personal statement drafts these days, and students are often in their first draft very eager to show what they've done and what I try to help them understand is exactly what you pointed out in your opening, which is we're really trying to communicate who you are and what's motivating you and what your ambition is, and some of these characteristics, and a lot of medical students are not naturally inclined towards writing, but I'm wondering if you could speak to the value of story writing for the writer in terms of being able to maybe self-reflect and identify some of those more deeper characteristics or motivations. Is there any value to that exercise? Because I think a good personal statement really can be a very powerful tool for exactly what you said, which is finding a position or an institution that has shared mutual values with yourself. So I'm just wondering if you have any thoughts about that.
Sarah
Oh, I think this is a great, great question and it's really hard. I mean, I think it's, yes, our fourth year medical students struggle with this. I think often many of us struggle with this because ultimately the questions we have to ask ourselves to get to the underlying reasons is why and what can feel so intimidating about this? You cannot ask chat GPT for the answer. It's not out there. The answer is inside you and you are the only one who has that answer. Sometimes, especially I think in the throes of medical school, we're so overwhelmed with data overload and we're trying to get the best grades and get the best feedback on our rotations, and maybe we're trying to do research and we're trying to volunteer and it just feels like we're doing and doing and achieving and achieving, and really what's going to stand out to those programs, as you said, Rebecca is the why behind the passion for why you're doing what you're doing.
And so I think there are a few things that fairly painful exercise of just why. Okay, so you did this research or you volunteered in this program, why and when There's an answer to that, why? And you could just free form, write it. No one else has to read it. Just start writing and let it come out. Go take a walk, go for a run, go for a swim. And I know this is sometimes hard to hear as a student when you're just so, so busy. Sometimes it's getting out of that analytical part of your brain and into that creative core, which is not always super accessible when we're focused on these analytical achievements that helps you answer the why and the why and the why, right? The other piece is sometimes it's drawing. Rahul was kind to share with me another great storyteller, Matthew Dicks, who has some amazing tips and tricks about storytelling.
And I was kind of fascinated when he said he doesn't ever write down, this won't work for a personal statement. You have to write that one down. But if he doesn't write down what he's going to say, he just kind of has these moments in time or these images in his brain, Matt Lewis would call these the lily pads that you're going to move from. Draw them, draw the pathway, draw your why. Use whatever creative outlet is most appealing to you to try to access the part of your brain that is a little less analytical and a little more at your creative core to help you really answer those hard questions.
Rebecca
That's a great answer. Thank you.
Rahul
Yeah, I wished you were allowed to send drawings in because you could draw your iki guy and send that in as your personal statement. And I also will see people in their offices or rooms or homes of course, sharing these artifacts, whether they're photographs or something someone has made for them. And those are little stories sitting right in front of our eyes.
Sarah
Oh, Rahul, I'm so glad you said that because another place where story comes out and where you can use story as a leader is if you are responsible for leading meetings, starting your meeting with a check-in can be so valuable. We literally did one in a meeting once where it was look around, you pick up an object that has meaning to you. We were on Zoom and share it with the group, and one of the first people shared a nut bowl, this carved wooden nut bowl that had belonged to her grandparents. And I saw another team member's face just light up, and he said, just a minute. And he went in the next room and brought his nut bowl, and it's just, you would never think to ask someone, tell me about your nut bowl, but the two of them, and then all of us somehow felt this thread of connection through these familial nut bulls. So yes, take those moments of check-in and be creative with them. I love that idea of the artifact that has meaning. There's stories within those two,
Rahul
And I think your work and that of Marshall Ganz and the Leading Change Network has definitely influenced me to think about this second theme of using storytelling to build community. And I heard that in your response as well. So maybe we touch on that use of storytelling for leaders to build community or the story of us as they say, how can we use stories to build community within a classroom session or within a healthcare team that we're leading?
Sarah
Stories are essential for that building of community in whatever context you're in. Typically when you're coming together as a group, there is some common reason why you're coming together. There are some shared values that exist across that team, so finding ways to seek them out and highlight them becomes really valuable. A couple examples of this. One is a colleague and I will often go into an undergraduate seminar class at UNC, and we're talking a little bit about relational leadership and just we touched lightly on storytelling and we asked the students to go around and talk about something from the last week that they're proud of or something that added some stress for them. The autonomy to choose is really important for them to feel like they can safely bring whatever they want into this space. And by the end of going around, we usually ask them, did you learn something about someone else in this group that you didn't know?
Of course the answer's always yes. And then it's if you were going to go forth and start a new initiative or try a new project, did you hear people in this room express shared values with you where now you could go to them and say, Hey, do you want to come together and try this thing with me? And essentially they've built relational power by identifying shared values through that process. Another example is in the clinical setting, we would have these big all hands meetings once a quarter where everyone from the clinic would come together in basically a big staff meeting, and at the end we would do a shout out hour. It was usually 10 minutes, not a full hour, but we would get the opportunity to offer gratitude and honor what we had seen our colleagues do that essentially highlighted our shared values. I mean, you could say like, wow, I saw Holly notice that this patient in the waiting room was really struggling with their mobility.
So without anyone asking, she went and got a wheelchair, went to that patient and brought them back to the back right away. And it's not a story about me, it's a story about what I witnessed Holly do. But by calling it into this space where we're all together, it starts to exemplify the shared values that we think are most important as a group. And that starts to create cohesion in the room, which becomes really important through difficult uncertain times where you've got navigate uncertainty or launching new projects, sustaining change. And I feel like all those things are pretty synonymous with healthcare. So there's real value in doing something like that.
Rahul
I think anyone who's the director chief in any position of leading a team needs to be the chief storytelling officer for that team and create and hold these spaces where people can tell stories about how values were upheld, the mission was forwarded, or just what people are doing to contribute. I think so many people in healthcare and education just feel so unseen that they're working hard all day half of it or more on a device where nobody's seeing them and nobody's acknowledging them. So what you said is so powerful, even that one thing.
Brooke
Yeah, I just had a thought from way earlier on in your opening story, because when you were telling it, I wasn't even thinking or consciously aware that I was picking up on what your values are. I was just listening to the story and then subconsciously I was like, oh, okay, that means she's this, she's this, she's this. Then I didn't even realize I realized all those things until we were talking about it afterwards. And so I just thought that was really cool. I think that also goes back to Dr. Zucconi when you're writing a personal statement or sharing a story, it isn't genuine If you're saying, oh, that means I am authentic versus showing it. So I thought that was really, really cool.
Rebecca
Yeah, you nailed it. I think also bringing attention to your point, Sarah, about knowing who your audience is, really knowing who your audience is, and with these personal statements, this is a big part of the work I do too with students, is reminding them you are writing to a very specific audience with a very specific goal in this case. So knowing that you're appealing to program directors, you might not necessarily want to spend two paragraphs talking about why internal medicine is the best medical specialty there is. Those people already agree with you.
Sarah
That's right. They get it. And this is true for your interviews too. So when you get into a space, I didn't mention this in detail, but when I had that interview with the program alum, we talked about home remodeling. We didn't talk anything about the work. I mean, I think it started in some context of systems, but we just went, we connected as people, a shared passion. And my hope is that that connection, that energy, that's just this intangible feeling that then gets carried with these folks into that inevitable meeting, the debrief that happens after, you want them to carry into that shared space and excitement about you. And that will happen when you feel a connection with that person more than it will happen when they read your grades and your test scores and your research. Research publications.
Rahul
Yeah. So I want to bring you back to the third theme that I picked up in your use of storytelling. You said it can be used to influence people and lead change. So how could we best use stories to make it clear with our listeners if one path is better than the other path?
Sarah
Great question. I think in part, so there are kind of two aspects of this that I think of. It goes back to what you said about sharing stories about times when things did not go well. I think certainly we can think of leaders in our past who shared a facade of perfection and maybe we honor them and we hold them in high regard. I think the people who we truly want to follow and feel like, oh my gosh, I could really put up with a lot of things in my job that I don't like because I want to work with this other person. They're usually the more flawed leader, the person who's showing us some of the cracks, who shows us that they're still learning, who then wants us to grow and develop with them. And so I think there is this element of being an inspiring leader through the stories that you share about yourself and supporting and helping other people grow along with you.
And then there's a more structural approach to this, which goes back to Marshall S's work, right? The story of self, the story of us, and then there's the story of now, which is why now? What is the urgency? Why do we need to make change on this? Why do we need to move forward? Usually that's after you've built that sense of us in the space. What is the thing or the things that the US cares about collectively? How do I best share that? How do I really inspire and motivate people to move in that direction? I mean, I think about the really challenging work of being a medical director. Medical directors sit in this space of both delivering the clinical care typically, and they're working alongside folks delivering clinical care. They're also answering to and communicating the needs of the leadership level above them. Sometimes those wants and needs feel like they're in conflict with the values of the people delivering the care.
So this is an essential skill for those folks, especially. How do you authentically, we're not trying to, this is not all about being positive all the time. How do we authentically get to the core of why we actually do need to make these changes? How are these changes in service of our ultimate shared goal? Whether that's the best clinical care, optimal access for our patients, keeping the clinic sustainable, keeping the doors open, helping everybody in the practice keep their jobs right? There's usually a core reason. How do we come together in that context and effectively communicate the why behind the change that needs to happen? And it's not easy. It sounds, I'm making it a little bit formulaic. It is not that easy when you bring together a collective group of people with a lot of different perspectives and motivations.
Maya
I was just thinking in a slightly different direction in terms of story as advocacy. So whether we're doing that to influence something within our team, or even we're trying to influence something on behalf of our patients or help our patients and our clients do that. So really leveraging story in that way to change minds, to change policy. Doing it with data alone often isn't enough. Both are equally important. But personalizing and helping someone connect to the why that you were talking about earlier. Why do we need to do this, right? Why do we need to advocate for a policy change or a change in the way we do things, say in our medical center to better serve patients? I think that piece is key. And we have to remember that's part of our power as healthcare providers. If we can harness that and use that. Yes, absolutely.
Rahul
Yes, stories sticks, stories are memorable. Stories are going to make us more powerful. So Sarah, you've convinced us to tell more stories. We are feeling a bit braver. So tell us how do we make a story come to life in engaging for our listeners?
Sarah
I think you all have mentioned this over and over, it's authenticity. So coming from a space that feels like it's truly yours, it's sharing those values. Ideally, you want to take your listener into that moment with you. And some people will say, oh, we need the richest imagery. I actually love what Matthew Dix says about this, which is if you're going to describe a space that a lot of people are familiar with, they're going to come up with an image on their own, in their own mind. You don't have to describe the grocery store with its beeps and bings and aisles and produce. I mean, most people have been in a grocery store. They're going to conjure that on their own. Now, if you're trying to describe a space that you think is going to be unfamiliar to your audience, you may want to bring them more into that moment with you.
You certainly want them to feel the feelings you were feeling. You also need some tension in there. You need a little bit of contrast. He says, think about where you want to end in your story, and then where you begin is when you felt the opposite of that. And so to create that tension of, and in the story that I shared, I ended being matching in a primary care residency. Well, I started saying, one focus categorical internal medicine. That's the only life for me. And so how do you create that tension, the uncertainty? How do you help people be curious and wonder what's going to happen next? What is she going to decide? What will she choose that helps bring them along through the story? And bear in mind, this is I think, more practical for those formal sharing of stories or your written stories more so than don't feel like in the moment if you have an anecdote, you want to share that you can't share it because you've got to sit there and formulate, where do I want to end? Okay, now where do I want to begin? Now, where's the imagery? How can I bring them along? Just share the anecdote and connect with that person. So this is all on a scale, and you decide where on the scale or the spectrum is right for the moment.
Rahul
So what I'm picking up from you is one is be authentic, meaning you are in the story, or if it's someone else's story, you're telling it through the lens, you observed it.
And then thinking about that challenge, choice, outcome, and trying to keep your story as focused and clear about that challenge and the choice being made and having the rest of the elements of the story serve it. And then the third thing I heard is be clear about how you want the story to end. Often that's where you're starting to construct your story. And then you can think about the beginning, which is hopefully, or in most cases, the opposite of it. And now your arc of story faces that challenge and how you choose and overcome that and have a good outcome or bad outcome. However you want the story to go is how you're forming the arc of your story.
Sarah
Yes. Another thing that Matt Lewis will often say is when we teach this and we put a timer on the learners and we say, three minutes, you've got three minutes. And they've just crafted this story, and usually the timer will go off and they'll say, oh, I was just getting to the good part. And Matt, every time says, well, then start with the good part, right? So it makes it sound like it's really easy and you just plug and play. It takes a lot of practice. I'm still learning and growing every time I do it, for sure.
Rahul
Sarah, thank you. That's been a masterclass in storytelling. Before we end, if there is one message you hope our listeners take away, what would it be?
Sarah
Try stories. Look for them all around you in your own life. They're everywhere. Invite them from other people. Don't be afraid about making it perfect. It will never be perfect. Just try it and start to really observe how it changes your connection and relationship with the people around you.
Rahul
That's wonderful. Sarah, thank you so much for a great conversation on telling more stories, telling stories to connect, telling stories to share about us. It's been such a joy and privilege. One of the things that I'm taking away from this conversation is not just the power of telling stories, but also the power of just listening to stories and honoring stories from others. And when we are telling our own stories, just start simple, start small. You got to practice it, and it will help you connect better with people and be a better leader.
Maya
I'll add something in that is echoing from your original story, Sarah, which the idea that our stories also are never done. So you might've had an assumption of this is the story, this is the map, this is the road that I'm on, and yet there's always some new curve, some new plot twist, shall we that may surprise us and make us more fully ourselves and our authentic selves. So I think sometimes we get very stuck and I think we can get stuck as a young person that, oh, I think this is the plan, but even as we're further in our professional lives, this is who we are. And that really never has to be static. That can always change. So that was a nice reminder.
Rebecca
I also appreciate the reminder to not only be authentic with our storytelling, but really to listen authentically to people who are sharing stories with us and to remember to see perhaps some of the vulnerability behind that sharing.
Brooke
Yeah, I would definitely echo that. The word that I was taking away was also authenticity and the importance of that in telling stories. And I think that you really explained the importance of that and showed why it's so important.
Rahul
Sarah, before we end, how can our listeners reach you and stay connected with you about the work you're doing?
Sarah
I would love for folks, I hope that's been very clear. I love being connected with folks, so I would love for anyone to reach out. They can find me on LinkedIn or by email. And my email is sarah@rlpconnect.com.
Rahul
Thank you so much. It's been such a joy. And our listeners, we'd love to hear from you as well. Let's keep the conversation going. Thanks for tuning in, and until next time, take care. Keep learning and keep leading.
Brooke
Thank you for listening to our show. Learning to Lead is a production of the Quinnipiac University podcast studio, in partnership with the Schools of Medicine, Nursing and Health Sciences.
Creators of this show are Rahul Anand, Maya Doyle, Peter Longley, Amber Vargas and Brooklynn Weber.
The student producer is Brooklynn Weber, and the executive producer is David DesRoches.
Connect with us on social media @LearningToLeadPod or email us at LearningToLeadPod@quinnipiac.edu.