Episode 1: This is US! Part 2 Transcript
Rahul
Welcome to Learning to Lead, a podcast about leadership, teamwork, and reimagining healthcare. This podcast is for learners, educators, and healthcare professionals interested in building leadership skills in a supportive community.
We are your hosts Rahul Anand, Maya Doyle, Peter Longley, Amber Vargas, and Brooklynn Weber.
Together we bring you conversations with emerging and established leaders, deep dives and hacks to help you become the best leader you can be.
Brooke
Welcome back to the second part of our first episode. In this part of the episode, we will discuss our leadership failures and how our leadership journeys have changed us. Then we will introduce the Rose-Bud-Thorn concept, and finally we will end with our key take-aways from this episode.
Pete
So Rahul, what about a leadership example where things didn't go the way you would hope?
Rahul
Oh, I have so many. That's why I got interested in learning about leadership, because it wasn't working so well for me.
So I'm thinking of a time before Quinnipiac, and at that point I was 10 years out of residency, almost 20 years out of stepping into medical school for the first day. And I was working at a Community Hospital as the lead infection prevention person, hospital epidemiologist, infectious disease physician. And I had already been a certified physician executive at that time, so I should be like flying with leadership and deploying it to make great waves.
But instead of this being like a wonderful experience at the peak of my career, it was a situation where I was just working day and night. Every 3rd week of call beepers beeping at night, waking up my family, working every 3rd weekend, you know, dropping off my son. The first to be dropped off, the last to be picked up, beyond the pick up time, was basically a recipe for whole family burnout. So you have burnout in healthcare for people, we had whole family burnout, so it wasn't really wasn't working very well, this personal and professional synchronization.
And then in terms of collaborating and working with others, I was in so many teams, because in infectious diseases, we work with literally every floor, every department, whether it's inpatient, outpatient, nursing home, every setting. And true, we were touching a lot of people's lives in a good way, but then when it came to the interpersonal friction amongst some of the people I worked with really closely, I was scratching my head that you know, I have all this leadership training and we're doing all this good work, why are we so miserable when we have to work together? It really beat me. And then at the systems level, we were contributing a lot to the organization with infection prevention, but really not seeing any of the rewards, you know whether it's for in terms of being acknowledged, or in terms of the compensation, or career progression. So at a self and teams and systems level, it was a complete failure at all levels. And it got me thinking, you know, like the whole point of being in healthcare or the whole point of learning leadership is so we can make our own lives and the lives of people around us.
And I think again true, we were making the lives of patients better, but were we making our own lives better? And if people were working with? I'm not so sure. So I saw that as a failure of leadership and following those bread crumbs led me to the secret we talked about, that we can't be just so task focused all the time, we have to be relationship centered when we're taking on those tasks. And I think that's what I was missing, that led me to those failures.
Pete
Well, thank you. Very insightful. Amber.
Amber
So, you know, my experience in hospital systems is just beginning, right. Like I'm in my fourth year of medical school, so my experience is really mostly based on my rotations. Prior to medical school, I was an EMT, so I had some experience with the medical world, and then I worked in the ED as a scribe, so a little bit of experiences here and there.
But you know one thing that's sticking out to me in terms of like a time where I I thought leadership may not have been going as well as I had hoped was one of my rotations. You know, our rotations, some are better than the other, naturally. Like you have ups, you have downs. But on this specific one, and I think other students can resonate with this, it felt it felt very isolating. You know, I was, I felt like I was just there to kind of check a box. Like no one really cared if I was there, or if I wasn't there, they weren't really helping me find out like where I should go, where I should be, what I should be doing. But I was getting evaluated nonetheless. So it's like I had to kind of like figure it out for myself because I at the end of this rotation, I need an evaluation that determines my grade and whether I pass and move on. So, you know, there was a lot of, like, OK, well, I'll just put my best foot forward. And you know, I'm going to take care of my patients the best way I know how, and somebody will see. Maybe. So that was kind of how that rotation went and you know, I'll leave the outcome…ambiguous.
But it just, the take home point for me, was that now when I'm on rotations and I see third year, second year, even first year medical students who are there to shadow, like I do make it my responsibility to tell them what I know, what their place can be, what they can do, “Hey, do you wanna come with me?” Like just little things like that, to make them feel like they have somebody who they can turn to, that they feel like they're showing up to that location for a reason. And there's something for them to gain and take out of that experience. That's just one example.
Rahul
That's got to be rough. Yeah, I’m remembering, I am listening to your story and remembering my first week of internship in India and my surgery attending told me this thing that you're gonna have two kinds of experiences in the year ahead. One which will teach you how to be and then the other, the exact opposite, are going to teach you how not to be.
Amber
Mhm.
Rahul
And I think that stands true even today.
Amber
Yeah, exactly.
Pete
Oh yes, and I remember being on the floors and you watched the Med students just kind of walk around. They're trying to find something to do, like. Yeah, they're just.
Amber
Yeah.
Pete
Just looking around. Looking in charge this. Oh, this is interesting.
Amber
Yeah, because sometimes they don't know their place or what is expected of them. You might be thinking, oh, that Med student is not doing anything, but they might not know what they could do, you know. So.
Pete
Right. Very true. Well, thank you.
So my next question is, how is this exploration into leadership, how has it changed, or is it changing your your journey as you go along?
I can go first while you're thinking. I can see you, I can see a burning, the wheels turning there. So, what it helped me do is change my mental model. As we've said, and you said it before, I was in the army, so the hierarchy was there. And I think I brought that right into healthcare because it was comfortable, and it's structured, right, and it's delineated, and you kind of know, where you're you are in the pecking order.
But of course, you know at times I felt less than. I felt like I was the person just loading the trucks. As long as you got the trucks loaded, you're good to go, right? So, but what I've realized, and this fellowship has really solidified it for me, is realizing everyone's a person in their on their own personal journeys with their own history. And I used to just think, all right, that's just some nice story people are telling us. But it really sat with me this time. So now I listen and try to understand where everybody's coming from, no matter the role. I see you more as a person now, and not a doctor, a social worker or a Med student. So it's helped me connect a little better and not keep everybody in this silo. I guess if you want to, you know, in their role. I see them more as Rahul, Maya, and Amber, and not by your role. So that's helping me grow in my leadership. So now I'll pass it to you Maya.
Maya
Thinking two things and I probably, I'm not going to say either one well. I think connecting back to what you said about story, you know I I came to social work from being an English major, right? Like I came from being someone who just literally sat in my dorm room bed and read a lot of books and annoyed the math major who shared my room.
And so, that piece has always come kind of naturally, like listening to people, getting people to talk like that, you know, telling stories like that all, sort of, comes naturally. But thinking about how to use that as a leadership skill, I think was the piece that I hadn't really thought about or, you know, seen described that way. So now, kind of using that level of awareness and I'm at a moment in my career which I've avoided for a really long time, which is there's probably some steps ahead that are actually formal leadership roles. Like that I can't, I can't duck it much longer. I've really like I I like the boots on the ground place and I'm really happy to stay there. But I'm like, you know what? I'm going to have to be a little braver and probably do the next thing because my team is going to need it.
Right. Like you know, we have some succession to think about if I'm going to remain part of a team, so. I think thinking about how to like, let myself evolve and what I can use sort of as that moves forward is going to be. So it's an interesting place to be having these conversations as like it's really like in my face now like oh, I'm going to have to, I'm going to have to do some stuff, that I've managed to, you know, I'm always like kind of the power behind the throne, or to the right and the throne, and like helping other people get stuff done. And it's like, no, I'm actually going to have to be the forward facing person at some point. And I think that's the leap that happens across careers and trajectories. Like, Amber, you were talking about becoming a leader in your student organization, right? Like you had to make that leap from being OK I'll participate to being like, oh, no, I'm gonna sit on the exact board. I'm gonna help do the, you know, get the next thing done. That's a leap. So.
Pete
Yeah, great.
Rahul
Yeah. We're cheering you on, Maya. Go brave Maya.
Pete
So Rahul, how's your leadership changed over this journey?
Rahul
I think my answer is closer to yours. So on the surface it's changed me from this very task focused, self-centered, “I need to get this done” perspective, to a more grounded relationship-centered perspective. And in thinking about that perspective of relationships, it's made me think a little bit harder about “the why” and “the how,” of doing things, not just getting them done. And more importantly, it's made me realize how interconnected everything is and we are part of something much bigger ourselves and that's really freed me up to take these risks. And to be more effective in honoring others and listening to them and working with them.
So that's really been my change from this steady task-focused frame to a much more relationship-centered and impact-oriented frame.
Pete
I'm a very good taskmaster too, and I'm going to check boxes and, but yeah.
Maya
See, I've only gotten to know you guys, you know, recently and like, I don't know Rahul in any other way than as being like grounded in relationship-centered like that like that's all I know. So you're.
Pete
True.
Rahul
I have I have modes definitely, and I think that's part of being a leader that you have to have this range where in the beginning we may just have a default mode, but then as we find our footing in philosophy, we've built this range and can now use this range to be more effective.
Pete
Very true. All right. We want to hear from a student perspective. How is this leadership journey changed you so far, or is changing you? Or what can you anticipate?
Amber
Yeah, great question. And I think you know I I touched on some of these things in the beginning, so sorry getting ahead of myself there a little bit. But ditto to what everyone has said really, like I, I really resonate with what everyone has said. And I'm feeling those changes myself now as I'm transitioning from student to, oh my goodness, graduate, and hopefully resident in just a few weeks now. So you know, I think another big thing that I can add here is transitioning from working on developing my own leadership, to helping other people also find their full potential and develop there's. You know, I think that's one thing that I I'm seeing myself actively doing now. You know, sitting on executive boards, or sharing conversations with people about like what I've been doing the last few years, and engaging with this course and like, oh, how'd you do that? What, what? What tools like. And we end up having these very meaningful conversations about their own leadership journeys, and their leadership roles, or whatever they're nervous about, scared about, or wish they can do better and taking some of the tools and hacks, and applying it. So I think that you know, it's a very unique thing to be developing myself as a leader, but also you know taking other people with me on that journey. So very, very blessed for that.
Pete
Yeah, yeah, mentoring is excellent.
Amber
Yes.
Pete
It was very rewarding when you can see someone blossom.
Amber
Yeah.
Rahul
Ambers come back to mentor the first year medical students in our leadership courses now three years in a row, as a second year, as a third year and now as a fourth year.
Amber
You have to find someone to take the hat.
Maya
Succession, right?
Amber
But it's been it's been an honor, honestly. Like without the site, I probably would not have met those first years, second years, and third years and now we have very meaningful relationships and that really that that coaching mentor mentee relationship that they can use for whatever they want even aside from leadership like we talked about other things you know, about just being a student.
Pete
Yeah, yeah. Everyone likes to get a little help here and there.
Amber
Exactly.
Pete
So the next concept I wanted to bring up is something we go over every time we meet, especially with the students, is the Rose-Bud-Thorn concept and maybe, maybe pinches. I'll leave that for Rahul to explain. The Rose-Bud-Thorn concept is something that's you're very proud of or excited about, the Rose.
The bud is more about something that's just starting to begin, that you're hopeful for. And then Thorn, something that you're challenged with currently.
Rahul
Something that's pinching you.
Pete
Something that's really pinching you. So for the bud, I thought I'd start with Amber.
Amber
So something budding for me right now, let's see. So I am planning a conference. We're having a conference in March and so lots of meetings, lots of planning, but very excited and looking forward to that outcome. And I'll let you know how that conference goes next month.
Pete
Oh, excellent. So I guess a thorn for me is, and it's been a thorn for a while, is being able to ask better or more thoughtful questions. Especially when I get emotionally engaged, for better or for worse, because my default, which I've come to learn is, you know, my funny sarcastic side, or I totally shut down. So, because I don't want that conflict.
So that's something that's been a thorn in my side and I continue to use communication tools, leadership tools, trying to hit it from all different angles. So that's one thing for me.
Let’s go to Maya and her rose.
Maya
Wow, I've got a lot more buds than roses right at this moment. But, and I'm honest like I don't know if this is the place for this, but my rose is actually I've raised a pretty good young man who is launching out into college and literally we spent this weekend as a family, I guess this is a rose, we spent the weekend helping him finish a scholarship application that was actually all about leadership and he came up with this great analogy about, he's a bit of a musician, and he talked about being a dynamic lead singer, a lyricist, a reliable road crew, and a rock steady baseline.
And I thought that was so fantastic, right? That and it really speaks to all the stuff we're talking about, right? Like, yes, I can be the shining star and I can be me and I can shop, but I can also, like, support other people. And like the fact that I've got a kid who innately seems to know these things when we're.
Pete
Yeah.
Maya
I think is really is really a rose and it then makes me think about, OK then how do I share this with other, right other young students who are in the same boat.
Pete
Right, right. Excellent.
Rahul
Love it. We're dedicating this episode to him.
Pete
Rahul, can you explain the pinch a little bit, and then tell us a little pinch that you have?
Rahul
So a pinch is something that's hurting you, maybe bothering you. And it's still something you're feeling safe enough to share with the people around you, whether it's for support or advice, sometimes you ask for advice with a pinch.
So a pinch for me right now is my left shoulder has been hurting for a few weeks and I'm at the point where I've just started physical therapy and I'm hoping that that's gonna make it go away. And I don't have to go into more intricate procedures to deal with it. So it's been a pinch both because it hurts every time I raise my shoulder, and it's been a pinch because I've not been able to do some of my strength training for the shoulder and can now start to feel it. And so hoping it's going to get better soon. Sometimes the pinch can be emotional, you know, it can be something that someone said to you. There can be all sorts of pinches, but for me, I think I'm grateful that that's my pinch for today.
Pete
Excellent. So what is that one thorn in healthcare that you're hoping your leadership skills, tools, whatever you want to call them, that you can use to help you in the near future? I'll start with Amber because she's the youngest and doesn't have much history.
Maya
She's not jaded.
Amber
I think for me I mean the theme of my answers throughout this episode have been focused on community and culture and things of that nature. So I think for me just, you know, one thorn that I'm like looking to tackle with leadership skills is just that first step of creating or fostering this inclusive community where people feel safe. Safe to speak up, right. Safe to you know, bring up that pinch, or that conflict, that they that they see before it turns into something bigger. So that's one thing that, you know I'm pinpointing for now. For my thorn.
Pete
Great. OK. And one for me is again, on the asking, thoughtful open minded questions, but it's really to understand the other person's perspective better. I have discovered you know you had that quick judgment and then I can't let go of it. So you just kind of and you, you ask them a very or I ask a very direct question, and kind of miss all the context. So I'm trying to slow down, explain myself better with more context before I ask maybe a difficult question or something like that. And be more patient with my communication. I tend to be a taskmaster. I want to get it done. Go quick. And I jump from the beginning right to the end and I lose people in the middle. So that's one thing I'm working on in healthcare because I think being able to communicate better and bring people along your journey so they can help understand and get them to where you hope right? We're for better outcomes for everybody. Of course, we all want patients to have better outcomes, but we shouldn't be depleted of our own personal energy by the end. So, let's see, Maya.
Maya
What was the question again? I'm looking at the mountain.
Pete
The thorn in healthcare.
Maya
The thorn. You know, I came into this work to be an advocate for kids and family with chronic illness. Like that's where this started for me and my work, my scholarship, everything is really connected to patient voice and making sure that people's voices are heard because when people's voices aren't heard, I think that's right, where a lot of the disparities happen and when action doesn't happen for folks who can't help get their needs identified and that happens in individual visits, right? I only have 3 minutes to get my concern out to my provider before they're ready to move on, you know, not they're ready to move and they have to move on. You know, it's not. It's not the fault of the provider necessarily. But time is very crunched, but also right as Amber was talking about. You know, communities and culture and those pieces, like who has a voice and whose voice isn't being listened to, so to me like that's the thorn that I want to fix. I don't know quite how to fix that other than every healthcare professional that we train differently, right will maybe help change that, change the model of healthcare we have right now. But I think we need more concrete steps and I'm going to count on Peter for that.
Pete
Excellent. Rahul, what's that one thorn for healthcare that you're thinking about?
Rahul
I think I'm going to go with more, something more concrete. So for me, one challenge that I'm looking to address is in my clinician role, I'm transitioning out of my role as the director of infectious diseases at a Community Health Center where I am right now. And so, starting to build a little space to explore what the next journey is going to be in that clinician leader role. And I'm struggling with whether I should go to another larger healthcare system and try to do things at scale with others and to have an impact. Or is it now time to start to build something that's much smaller but is in more in line with the vision that we have that we've just talked about of healthcare and giving this whole person care to patients and not just addressing sickness and disease, but really helping the whole person and having those wonderful teams. So I'm really struggling with it at this point and I've given myself a few months to explore those options, before converging on what is the one best path ahead.
Pete
Yeah. Thanks for sharing. All right.
Maya
That’s exciting and scary and terrifying. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, we're here for you.
Rahul
And terrifying. At the same time.
Pete
Yeah. And we totally understand it. All right, So what are some takeaways from this podcast as we start to wrap this up from spending this this time together? Anyone got something top of mind? Or we can go around the room?
Amber
I think a key take away for me is just being open to other people's perspectives. You know, sitting here, getting to know you all. It's just truly inspiring and you can learn so much from just learning about someone's journey and what they're thinking and their perspective on things. So one take away for me.
Rahul
I'll echo that I think that for me, the take away has been what Peter said and has embodied and created a space for us in this episode, which is just learning about each other as a person. And if we can just do that in our little interactions every day, it's going to make us so much better as people and leaders.
And then for our listeners, I think my take away is everything we do in this podcast is going to come back to something in self, or interpersonal and teams, and systems, and it's going to be done in a way that helps you become a better leader today. That's our promise to you.
Pete
Nice. I guess mine is, because I was the moderator, don't let your fears stop you. Because I thought this actually became a very comfortable podcast and is going to hopefully be edited and done very well by the end, but you know, I had all my fears clouding me in the beginning there. Uh, let's see.
Maya
Actually, I'll add on to that, Peter, that you know I was talking about sort of the evolution of our leadership and how scary it is. It can feel right. And Rahul, you're talking about sort of making that whatever that next decision ends up being or some combination of decision that you end up making. But sort of that, that ability to feel the feelings. Yes. I'm anxious. Yes, I'm scared. Yes, I don't. I don't know how to handle this pinch. I don't know how to handle this conflict, but being able to kind of take that, take that leap, I think there's bravery and courage in all of this. I guess those are synonyms, to be able to kind of take whatever our next steps are and hopefully we're giving that to our listeners as well.
Pete
Yeah.
Maya
I guess I'm hoping also this develops to be a conversation like it's not like, oh, we're experts and we're telling you this stuff, but also that that you know, however, that happens, you know, as this develops that we're hearing from folks at all different levels and from all different professional backgrounds and experiences. So that, right, it's conversation, it's not. Hey, we figured it out and we're going to tell you, but that we're, you know, we're still I think all of us have framed ourselves as learners. So we're right in with our listeners.
Pete
Right. We have a couple of decades of experience. That's all. That's what I tell my students.
Rahul
Couple of decades of learning from our mistakes. That's right. It's still learning from more mistakes, yeah.
Pete
Yeah.
Rahul
Every time that that's the beauty of this field, that every time I get to interact with either an expert or with a student, I get to learn so much more and often it's the students who ask the greatest questions, which we have no answers to and send us on journeys. So if you're listening, and if you have a question for us, a topic, an expert you would want us to bring on, please reach out to us and we'd love to go on that journey with you.
Pete
Excellent. All right. Well, thank you all. Three of us, all four of us. Thank you.
As today's moderator, thank you for participating in this conversation about leadership and healthcare from different interprofessional perspectives, net various times in our career journeys. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast for more relationship-centered leadership. Stay well until next time. Cheers to being our best selves, building relationships and teams, and making an impact on the healthcare system where we can. Thank you.
Brooke
Thank you for listening to our show. Learning to Lead is a production of the Quinnipiac University podcast studio, in partnership with the Schools of Medicine, Nursing and Health Sciences.
Creators of this show are Rahul Anand, Maya Doyle, Peter Longley, Amber Vargas and Brooklynn Weber.
The student producer is Brooklynn Weber, and the executive producer is David DesRoches.
Connect with us on social media @LearningToLeadPod or email us at LearningToLeadPod@quinnipiac.edu.