S2E2: Leadership Hack – Giving Others a Second Chance (feat. Miklos Fogarasi, MD)

Rahul 

Welcome to Learning to Lead, a podcast about leadership, teamwork, and reimagining healthcare. This podcast is for learners, educators, and healthcare professionals interested in building leadership skills in a supportive community.

We are your hosts Rahul Anand, Maya Doyle, Peter Longley, Amber Vargas, and Brooklynn Weber.

Together we bring you conversations with emerging and established leaders, deep dives and hacks to help you become the best leader you can be.

Brooke 

Welcome back to Learning to Lead. Our guest today is Doctor Miklos Fogaras, physician and educator at the Netter School of Medicine at Quinnipiac University. Welcome. 

Miklos 

Thank you. It's great to be here. 

Brooke 

All right. So, we'll just jump right in. What is one of your favorite tools or hacks to become a better leader? 

Miklos 

Yeah. So that's such a wonderful question. And I thought about something that's straightforward. I call it a second impression, beating a first impression. And technically, I had so many times in my life when after some important encounters, I wish that I did better. And I wish I could replay it or do it again. So, in my practice, both with patients, and with students, and coworkers, I decided to give a second chance. So, when I meet someone, a new co-worker, a student, a learner of any level, someone who was just introduced to me, I pay close attention to positive first impressions, positive first visits. And if that goes well, I cherish them. But I don't let a negative first impression bother me too much. I basically chalk it up to a person having a bad day, or someone have a hurried schedule, or an unexpected obstacle, or just as simple as getting into a traffic jam. And sometimes I simply tell myself, you know, maybe the issue I proposed was not the most important for that person that day. And so I let a first impression go, and if it's negative, this prompts me to schedule a second quick meeting within 3 to 10 days to give that person a second chance to come back better prepared to come back, less hurried, and to show their true colors to me. And what's really interesting, I don't say that that's the purpose, but most people realize, you know, I have a second chance and they come back well prepared. They come back smiling, they come back enthusiastic, open to discussion. So I do get impressed, I would say about 50/50 that after the second visit I have an unfavorable opinion that now changed to a favorable one. So that's a pretty good deal. Giving a second chance to get 50% more people in the good camp. 

Rahul 

Wow. This is Rahul. I love that hat for a couple of reasons. One, in healthcare or education, we don't know who's having a hard day. And often people are having a hard day. If we think about healthcare professionals as leaders in their patient interactions, our patients are pretty much having a hard day, which is why they are there to see us. So that is a great hack to give people a second chance. I'm also thinking about my own interactions in the past, where people have almost put me down in the first meeting. And to protect my own identity, I guess I told myself a story and didn't want to continue the interaction with them as enthusiastically as could have benefited me or the purpose. So I also love your hack for that reason that if our purposes are aligned, we always have a reason to come back and give people a second chance to work together. 

Miklos 

I fully agree with you. I think I got so many excellent, great collaborations born out of this process, basically not rejecting someone for a suboptimal first encounter allowed me to also come more openly to the table. It's interesting, the listener, who was not so impressed, it's also somehow more open. There is this, both of us being more interested in a good second encounter. And recalling over the years, how many second encounters went well, I use this now all the time with my students, with my colleagues, someone, a fellow co-worker who is just being introduced to me, and it's so simple. Give it a try. 

Brooke 

Yeah, I also agree that that's a really good hack that I really think anyone can use because we're always interacting with new people. And I think it's really optimistic of you, which is really nice that you don't just immediately jump to the conclusion that it's like a bad person and you're considering more than that. Thank you for listening to this hack, and thank you Dr. Fogarasi for joining us. Make sure to tune in next week to listen to the full episode where Dr. Fogarasi talks about Ikigai. 

Miklos 

Thank you for having me. 

Brooke

Thank you for listening to our show. Learning to Lead is a production of the Quinnipiac University podcast studio, in partnership with the Schools of Medicine, Nursing and Health Sciences. 

Creators of this show are Rahul Anand, Maya Doyle, Peter Longley, Amber Vargas and Brooklynn Weber.

The student producer is Brooklynn Weber, and the executive producer is David DesRoches.

Connect with us on social media @LearningToLeadPod or email us at LearningToLeadPod@quinnipiac.edu.

Episode 8: Caring Inspired Leadership with Joshua Hartzell, MD

Rahul 

Welcome to Learning to Lead, a podcast about leadership, teamwork, and reimagining healthcare. This podcast is for learners, educators, and healthcare professionals interested in building leadership skills in a supportive community.

We are your hosts Rahul Anand, Maya Doyle, Peter Longley, Amber Vargas, and Brooklynn Weber.

Together we bring you conversations with emerging and established leaders, deep dives and hacks to help you become the best leader you can be.

Rahul 

Welcome everyone. Our guest today, Dr. Joshua Hartzell, (MD, MS-HPEd, FACP, FIDSA) is a retired Army Colonel with a distinguished 25-year career in military medicine. He earned his medical degree from the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences (USUHS) and completed both his Internal Medicine residency and Infectious Disease fellowship at Walter Reed Army Medical Center. Josh has held many leadership positions, including Program Director for the National Capital Consortium Internal Medicine Residency at Walter Reed, as well as roles in Graduate Medical Education and Faculty Development at USUHS. He also deployed as a Battalion Surgeon with the 82nd Airborne Division in Afghanistan. His latest book, “A Prescription for Caring in Healthcare Leadership: Building a Culture of Compassion and Excellence,” highlights his passion for developing leaders who really truly care in healthcare and beyond. Josh, welcome to the show. It's an honor to have you here.  

Josh 

Wow. Rahul, thank you so much for having me and thank you for that very kind introduction. I'm definitely looking forward to this discussion. 

Rahul 

Wonderful. And with me as always are Pete Longley, Maya Doyle, and Amber Vargas. So let's get into the conversation and get our listeners to know you a little bit better. Josh, take us to the beginning, how did you get into healthcare, how did the journey begin. 

Josh 

Sure. So healthcare for me really began back in, I would say like high schoolish time period. And I had a sort of personal experience, my mom had breast cancer at a fairly young age for her and that was probably my first profound introduction into healthcare. And I had sort of been interested in science before that, but I think going through that with her really sort of led me to this like, hey this might be a a career. And then over time as I went to college and experienced other things related to health care and got to do some shadowing, I realized that this is where I wanted to sort of be with my career. 

Rahul 

Wow, yeah thanks for sharing that with us. I'm listening to you and reminded of Ikigai, that Japanese phrase, a reason for being. And how you found something that you really truly cared about and then as your journey was progressing, you were like, “Yeah I'm good at it, and I love doing it, and the world needs it,” and here we are. 

Josh 

Yeah, no I think that's true, and I think the other thing is that you know medicine was the sort of beginning of my career and that's also evolve to other things that I really am passionate about which is, you know, teaching and leading. So that that Ikigai has kind of evolved over the last 20 plus years. 

Rahul 

Yeah. We would love to go on that journey with you, your Ikigai, going through a time machine. So how does it go from there? So you're interested in medicine and then how do you get into military medicine? 

Josh 

Yeah. So when I was in high school, and really even before that, I was a huge reader. I mean I loved to read and most of what I read was biographies and history and a lot of military history. I just happened to be interested in those topics or genres, if you will, and I think that got me thinking about the military. I actually only had like one uncle who had served the full career. My dad had spent a couple of years in the military, but no one other than an uncle had spent 20 plus years. But I was interested in the military, and I also came from a very small town. I graduated with like 62 or 63 kids in my class. And so when I was getting ready to go to college, I was thinking the military is gonna offer me a lot of opportunities in terms of, you know, it's like almost like a commercial, and getting to see the world and getting to do different unique and interesting things. And again, most of my, I don't know, childhood, teen, sort of idols were people who were in the military or historical figures. So it was a nice blend. And then, you know, quite honestly the other thing was my family was, you know, we weren't poor but we certainly weren't rich, and I did the Reserve Officer Training Corps. Which afforded me the opportunity to go to a really good school and not have to pay for it, you know. And and I went to Duquesne undergrad in Pittsburgh, and then at that point my experience in the Reserve Officer Training Corps was exceptional. I had great cadre or faculty as we would call them and they really invested in our careers and helped us develop as you know not only military officers, but also students. And when it got ready to go to medical school, the Uniformed Services University, which is our nation’s military medical school, just seemed like the dream to me. Like I get to combine this, you know, being a military Medical Corps Officer with becoming a physician. And fortunately, everything worked out that I got accepted there and then was able to go to school at that school. 

Rahul 

Wonderful. Yeah, those early experiences and the role models you meet early on are so formative. Like they really define how you think of the field and what that quote unquote dream place looks like to you. 

Josh 

The other thing I would say, and I do this with one of the classes I teach for leadership, is that you know a lot of those early experiences, whether it's our parents, our neighbors, sports coaches, we learn a lot of leadership from them. We may not call it leadership, but when we actually reflect back on why we do certain things we do as leaders, it's because of those early experiences and how they shaped us. And sometimes that's shaped us in a good way, and other times it's shaped us in a way that maybe we need to adapt or adjust. But I was really fortunate that I had some very remarkable leaders early in my life that I think shaped a lot of how I think about and approach leadership. 

Rahul 

Yeah, that's a great point. So then how does the journey go on from there? You get into Uniform Services University, and then how do you get in from there to your first quote unquote leader position? Like take us through the journey where you first see yourself as a leader in healthcare. 

Josh 

I think when I was a student, I mean we talked about leadership, but I didn't, at that time at least reflecting back, didn't necessarily think of myself sort of fully as a leader. I think during residency is where this transition started. And I was very fortunate to have a Residency Program Director, Greg Argyros, who I interviewed for the book, who really empowered residents. So and we also had another faculty member I remember distinctly, his name was Keith Posley, who I believe still works at one of the Veterans Affairs hospitals in California. But they really empowered us to make changes in our Residency Program. And I think that was sort of this shift of, I'm not just here as kind of a participant, which I was, but hey, we can lead and make change in our program. So those were some early routes. And then, you know, I was blessed with the opportunity to be Chief of Medical Residents for our Internal Medicine Residency and that was a clear, distinct leadership role. And at the time, there was only one Chief Resident. We had 40 plus residents within our program, so I had the opportunity for a year to really be immersed early in my career, as someone who was leading other residents, interns, rotating medical students. But also leading up to our faculty and hospital leadership, in terms of getting what we needed to support our residents. So I think those experiences in residency allowed me to see myself as a leader and then that just sort of evolved over over time. 

Rahul 

So, what I'm hearing is that it was when you were a resident that the seeds of quote unquote agency were sown. That yes, we can make changes to make our lives and of those around us better. And then those propelled you to the next role, more formal, which was a Chief Medical Resident. 

Josh 

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that idea of going both with formal leadership title positions, but also informal roles. And we lead from both of those positions. And it's part of the reason why I love that Amber is on this call, right, is is she's already doing this in Med School. And I think as I've become more senior, I've tried to look sort of back and say, “Hey, how can I help medical students lead from where they're at? How can I help our Interns and Residents lead from where they're at?” And just sort of bring that to the surface so that they see themselves as leaders. And as you mentioned the word “agency,” I think that's critical, right? That they're here, and their input is valuable and that they can take the reins and lead things. They can make things better for themselves, for their classmates, for our healthcare organizations. When I was Program Director at Walter Reed, when I met with our new Interns, I would always tell them, “Look you're all coming from across the country. You're coming from different hospitals, different healthcare systems. I can assure you, without a doubt, you are doing things, you've done things, better than how we do them here. Like you just have to, there's so many of you, so many different experiences. You can make us better by teaching us those lessons, teaching us new processes.” And really sort of planting that seed for them from, you know, these are Interns, but day one, hey we expect you to lead, to have agency, a say in what you do and help us get better.

Amber 

Thank you for sharing your story. As you were speaking a lot of things that you said resonated with me, in terms of like, you know, your first experiences with leading teams as a Resident. I'm curious to know, is there anything that you were exposed to in medical school or that happened during medical school that prepared you for those leadership positions as a Resident? And on the other side of the token, is there anything you wish you had done, or you wish you were exposed to in medical school to be better prepared for that? 

Josh 

Wow, that's a great question Amber. I think part of it for me, like I had already done 4 years of ROTC, so that was definitely part of it. And our school, like we're blessed at the Uniformed Services University, that leadership is part of the culture. This idea that you're going to lead, and that we're going to teach you how to lead, that's part of the culture at the school. So I think that empowers our students to think of themselves early as leaders. And then then the question becomes, OK what does that look like? What are the skills I need? So I think partly having a culture that is supportive, you know, much like I mentioned the culture of our residency like, our goal is to empower our residents, to give them that agency, to help them figure out how to push ideas and lead from where they're at. So I think for me, it was just being immersed in that, and having prior experience that I had learned from my time in Army ROTC. Things that I wish I would have maybe done differently; I don't know that there would be. I, you know, I felt very blessed in my medical school time. I had great classmates, we had amazing faculty who listened to us, and they would take input and advice. And I think for most of us, like that's really what we need when we're in follower positions. I do think one of the things I would if I could go back now, I didn't really learn about the term “followership” and what it was to be a follower. And some of the specifics around that honestly till probably, I don't know 5, 6, 7 years ago. Lauren Weber, who was a Chief Resident of ours and now is out of the Navy, but she's really sort of an expert in followership and she taught me about it. I think if I had known those follower skills that probably would have made me have more agency. And think about like just more intentionally how I approached leading from that follower position. I think the good news is people are becoming more familiar with followership and what it means and how followership is really the cornerstone of becoming an effective leader. And also, that no matter where you're at in your career, you're almost always going to be a follower to somebody. So I think that would be the only thing that I could really think of is just knowing more and learning more about followership. 

Rahul 

That's a fantastic concept. So before we go ahead, just for our non military listeners, what's ROTC? And then I'm going to ask you about followership. 

Josh 

Sure. So ROTC is the Reserve Officers’ Training Corps so the Army, Navy, Air Force all have a program that basically pays for your college if you agree to serve, I think it's still 4 years, but 4 years after you've completed college. They have 3- or 4- year scholarships. But it's a it's a great way to go to school, get military experience, serve your country and then, you know, if you want to stay in great, and if you want to get out after your commitment is up you can also you know move on after that. 

Rahul 

Thanks. So let's come back to followership because a core value for a medical student or health professional student or trainee even attending in their first 5, 10 years is survival. And so the instinct is, you know, I'm doing my work, I'm doing excellent work, but I'm gonna do my work and go home. I'm not gonna get involved in all of these politics and tangles of leadership. So tell us what followership means to you and what are the concepts or elements of followership that our trainees and early career professionals can use to build these early experiences of leadership. 

Josh 

So to me, followership is how do I, as someone who's not in a position of leadership, support my leaders. In a simplest sense, that's really what a follower is. So Rahul, you're in charge, I am one of your followers, how do I support you and our mission so that we're successful? So I think you know there's a lot of ways you can do that. You can do that by doing your job really well. So if Amber is on a 4th year rotation and she does a great job supporting her, I'm just going to say Internal Medicine, because I think she should do Internal Medicine, but if she's on that rotation that, you know, like how does she support the interns and residents on her team so that they can get the work of the day done, so that they can better take care of patients. Maybe she volunteers to go meet with a family because they have a bunch of questions and she knows the patient really well. Maybe she agrees to write a discharge summary so that the intern and resident can go take care of something else. I think there's all these ways that we can support our leaders to make their jobs easier. And the fact is Healthcare is a team sport. So we need everybody to sort of play at the top of their game. And I think as followers we can do that I think so not just supporting your your leaders with the work you do, but if I'm Amber and I see that, you know, Josh is my attending and the way we're rounding is really taking too long, could she mention to me, “Hey Dr. Hartzel, can we, you know, think about running a different way?” Or can she give input on something else that she thinks might impact patient safety. So it's partly advocating as well. I think that's really essential for effective followers is to be able to bring up good ideas, bring up, give feedback, right, like we don't know if we're messing up if no one is willing to tell us. It also means that as leaders, we have to create a culture and environment where our followers feel comfortable telling us those types of things. So it's really a, you know, it's a 2 way relationship. But when we do it well, we can maximize our ability to care for patients, but also to care for each other in the healthcare team. I just wanted to add one story which I think is such a great example of followership. And I can't remember the students name, I feel bad about this, but several years ago we had a student who was rotating at Walter Reed. And he said one of the things he did as a medical student was at the end of each day, he gave positive feedback to the resident about something the resident had done. And the reason why he did it is because he knew that, one the resident worked hard and didn't necessarily always get a lot of positive feedback, so he wanted to basically give that resident positive feedback to put the resident in a better mood, to help that resident feel good about the work that he or she did. And of course that's not just the impact on the resident, right, because when that resident gets that feedback, how is their interaction going to be with the next nurse they interact with? Or the next patient they interact with? Or if they go home after that, is their interaction going to be a little bit better with their spouse or partner or kids? And again, this is a medical student rotating on a service and making a positive impact as a follower by thanking and recognizing the work that one of the health care team members did. 

Rahul 

What a great story. And in that there's something that every one of us can do no matter where you are in your training or work. That's a granular hack that everyone can use: take a moment and give positive feedback to the person who helped you that day because that's gonna make their day so much more better. Thanks for that. So let's come to the concept of caring inspired leadership. That's something that I'm learning interacting with you and reading your book. So let's begin by just starting with leadership before we go to caring inspired leadership. What does leadership mean to you? 

Josh 

It's evolved overtime for me. And the definition sort of that I've landed on is going to go back to your other question of what caring inspired leadership is. And to me, leadership is simply taking care of your people, so that they can take care of the mission. I think everything else we do as leaders, falls sort of under and within that. I mean it's ultimately about influence and how we get people to do things. But if I take care of you as a follower, as someone who I need to do certain things, you're going to be motivated to do them because you feel cared for. So to me, it's just ultimately, how do we take care of our people so that they can optimally take care of the mission. 

Rahul 

Wonderful. And so of all the ways that leadership can be done, there's many many theories, styles, you name it, why caring inspired leadership? What's so special about this brand? 

Josh 

So I think what I have sort of seen, and learned, and realized over time is thinking about all the leaders that like, if you ask me today, like would I do something for them? Like I, I like to refer to these as like run-through-the-wall criteria. These are leaders that we would run through a wall for if they asked us. And sort of the one thing that keeps coming back to me, that I could easily answer about those leaders, was that they cared deeply for me, personally and professionally. They wanted the best for me professionally, but they also cared for me as a person. And in some cases they cared for me and my family. And, you know, so I think when we think about, how do we get people to want to follow us? Well we can inspire them through our caring. If we take care of them, they're gonna wanna do great things. You know, we talked about the idea of how do you motivate people? Well, people are motivated by knowing that you want the best for them, and that you're going to create opportunities for them, and you're going to support them. That's what motivates people. 

Rahul 

Maya, you have a question, go ahead. 

Maya 

I had a thought reflecting on what Josh just said, and thinking about that, you know, what motivates people. And I, I've always thought about, right, that idea of sort of intrinsic and extrinsic reward of why we do things, right. And yes, it's nice to have the extrinsic reward of getting paid, and getting titles, and having those things. But that sense of doing things because you're valued. And because you're treated as if you're valued is such a crucial piece. And I think, you know, well I the 30 years I've been working in healthcare now, we've been in bigger and bigger institutions and more complex institutions, which maybe from someone on the military side, isn't so surprising. But like for me, I went from working in one hospital being within a huge network, right, and how you keep that sense of kind of intrinsic value going when you're a smaller and smaller cog and a bigger and bigger healthcare wheel, is is challenging. So just reflecting on maybe, what other things you've sort of done to be able to provide that sense of intrinsic value and reward. 

Josh 

Yeah that's a really good, I think, insight. And you mentioned cog in the wheel. We hear people say like, “I'm just a number on a spreadsheet. I'm a widget.” And, you know, those are sort of devaluing terms. Unfortunately, I think for a lot of us in healthcare because of the systems we've worked in, and in some cases because of the leadership we've had, it makes us feel like we are those things. We're replaceable, you know, we're only about the number of RVUs we generate. And I think when people feel valued and respected, they are going to show up motivated and they're going to do a good job. When they're not valued and respected, they'll show up and they'll do the work they have to do for the whatever period of time you're going to pay them. But I don't think that's what we want in healthcare. And I don't think that's fair to people. People want, you know, to have careers that they feel good about. And, you know, how do we do that, as leaders? I think a lot of it is reminding people of the value that they bring at every single level. One of the things I wrote about, this was actually several years ago, was that we often take for granted the amazing things we do in healthcare. I had a resident, who had kept a patient alive overnight, that had coded several times. And my initial reaction to this, because there were a couple emails of like, “Wow, what a great job, you know, this resident had done.” And my initial reaction was aren't they supposed to do that? Like that's why they're in the hospital. And then it just dawned on me, this resident kept another human being alive. And the response was simply like, “Well, that's their job.” Well, you know, that's not many people's job in this world. And you know everyone in healthcare, while this becomes routine for us, it is not routine for the people that we deal with. And that's not just coding a patient overnight. But it's having an end-of-life discussion with a patient and their family. While that might be the 3rd end-of-life discussion we have during the day, it's the only end-of-life discussion potentially that family is going to have with that family member ever. And, you know, there's so many examples of that. So I think one of our jobs as healthcare leaders is to not let the routine become routine. How do we remind people that the work that they're doing is life changing and life altering for the people that that do it. The way our, you know, cafeteria workers interact with patients and family members when they're there, has a huge impact, right. Family members there, they may have just been told they have a cancer diagnosis, they may be going to get something to eat because they have another appointment and they've got stuff stacked. And if that person treats them well, maybe smiles at them, maybe says something about like, “Oh I love your sweater,” or just something that gives them an ounce of positivity, that can make a huge difference in a patient 's life. And I think we we have to get to a point where as leaders, followers, everyone within our system, that we recognize that and we help people see the value that they bring every single day and not take it for granted. 

Maya 

Yeah. And every single person in our environment, right, needs that. 

Rahul 

Yeah. Let's say I'm somebody skeptical though. I'm not entirely convinced by hearing what you're saying. What is the evidence that this works? What are the benefits of being a leader that's driven by caring?

Josh 

Yeah, and I actually recently been thinking about like sort of the term “evidence based leadership". We talked about evidence based medicine, but what is the evidence based leadership? And what I've tried to do in the book is really give not only like anecdotes or examples of things that I've seen work, but also provide data where we have data. And I think I can't quote it all off the top of my head, but there's very clear data that by doing some of these things, it improves outcomes. The other thing I would say is we know very clearly that the burnout data shows that physicians, nurses, others in healthcare, when they're burnt out, they have worse patient outcomes, they have worse patient satisfaction; we have worse retention issues, we have depression and suicide sort of at at the end of that as well. All of those things have huge costs to our healthcare system. Just to replace a physician, the estimated cost is somewhere between $500,000 to $1,000,000.00. When you think about lost revenue, severance packages, hiring somebody new, onboarding them, right. So when we think of those costs, what if we just treated people a little better? What if we invested some of that money upfront to change, you mentioned culture, I mean that's part of the reason why culture is in the title of the book. Is what if we created cultures where people actually wanted to come to work? Where they weren't burned out? Those are going to lead to better patient outcomes, the data supports that. It's going to lead to more cost effective care, the data supports that. I think the issue is is getting people to be proactive and not reactive, because a lot of times what we do is after somebody leaves, right, well we just have to hire somebody else. We need to be implementing these things much more frequently. And we need to have intentional ways of addressing, you know, some of these issues in the healthcare system and changing our system. Otherwise we're just going to see more of what we've seen, which is staggering rates of burnout. And we again, we know the data behind that leads to worse outcomes. 

Rahul 

So I cannot imagine that somebody who's a leader comes and begins their day and has the intention, “I do not want to care.” I would just think they care about other things and not the people. So let's just take that perspective as to what's holding people back from being a caring inspired leader driven by caring? Where is the attention going? Is it going towards getting the task done, no matter what the impact on the people?

Josh 

Yeah, it's a great question. I don't know that I know definitively. And I'm only speaking from one person's perspective, although I can add some other things I've heard people say. The one thing, and I would agree with you completely, like every leader shows up every day wanting to do the best for their people and their organization. Like I truly believe that. You know, look, leadership is hard. Leadership in Healthcare is really hard. So, you know, everyone has good intentions. I think it's hard, you get distracted with numbers. People put budget numbers in front of you and, you know, if you're hospital leadership, I know this is as residency program director, every day people are bringing you problems to solve. And your day becomes just enamored with putting out fires and solving these problems. So I think that means as leaders, we have to step back from the fray, and think about, OK I'm dealing with those issues, but how do we step back and actually, again going back to that word “proactively,” proactively address taking care of our people? And this is where I think there is a little bit of a lack of understanding of what it means to take care of your people, and what are the intentional steps that I can actually do. It's interesting to me, I mean I'll meet with people sometimes and and they'll say, you know, I've never really had an effective mentor in my career. I've never really had somebody who invested in my professional development and helped me think about like, what my next career step were, and how I wanted to approach, you know, this position. I've never really had anyone give me feedback that changes my performance. So I think part of it is actually really thinking about OK if we want to take care of the healthcare team, what are those intentional steps? Because if you as a leader, have never seen them or never experienced them, it's hard for you to do that. Because we we are ultimately a product of what we've observed and learned. And one of my hopes of the book would be that we create this cadre of leaders who lead from a place of caring. So that when Amber is going through her residency, she sees them lead in that way, and she feels like taken care of, she feels inspired. And not only that, but they're teaching her how to lead in this manner. So that when she's done with residency, it's just natural for her to do these things in leadership. I think part of it is we just haven't taught people how to do this. So we need to catch up, we need to show people what these skills look like, we need to help people feel what it feels like when you have a leader who is fully invested in your career, who is fully invested in your family. I think when you feel that, when you've experienced that, you wanna give that to somebody else. You want someone else to feel that way because you know how it made you feel. 

Rahul 

Absolutely. What you're saying makes me think of people who I've met on my journey who have transformed me, not just helped me, you know, do something specific but changed who I am. 

Josh 

I would also liken it to clinical skills. If you need to learn a new clinical skill, as medicine evolves, which it does, right, you have to figure out a way to learn that. And I think it's it's also incumbent upon us, as leaders, whether we're in a titled position or whether we're leading informally, to dedicate some time to fostering our leadership development. Because when we do that, not only is it an investment in ourselves, but it's an investment in those we lead, and it's an investment in patient care. And I think part of this is getting healthcare organizations to recognize that investing in leadership development is an investment in patient care. If you want to improve access to care, patient satisfaction, you want to improve provider well-being, invest in leadership. That's going to move the needle. There's a great quote by Angela Acosta, she's one of the nurses who I interviewed in the book, and she said, “Do you know what makes happy patients? Happy nurses.” If we take care of nurses, and we treat them well and value and respect them, they will do amazing things with patients. 

Maya 

I would just add, Josh, what you've observed, you’re talking about nursing sort of interprofessionally, because I'm not sure across other professions in healthcare, and I'm not sure if outside of academic medical settings, that that idea of mentorship is as present for other professions. Like I managed to find myself some mentorship honestly through the physician and the nurse manager that I worked with, not necessarily within my own profession because it's not expected in the same way. And so I wonder like I think we've gotten really good at promoting mentorship as an idea, but I'm wondering how we really broaden it out. And maybe starting with our students, who go out maybe with a higher expectation. Like Amber, I think you're gonna go out in the world, and know, “I wanna find mentors,” right, that's going to be helpful to me. And I I wonder if we, how we sort of set that up more broadly, maybe across our healthcare institutions. I don't know what you've seen in your institutions, Josh, that sort of allow that for everybody, not just the physicians because I often feel that that's where the focus starts. 

Josh 

Thank you Maya for that comment. I think part of the reason why I interviewed nurses, and other healthcare providers, physical therapists, for the book was because these lessons are not just for physicians. I do agree with you that I think mentoring is not a common thing among a lot of healthcare professionals. I think this is actually why we see such a robust growth in coaching, paid coaching within healthcare. It's because they're not getting that type of professional development and that type of support where they work, right. So I do some coaching and, you know, it's great for coaching business, but what it means is is that we need to we need to train people within our organizations. And not only within our organizations, but look if I own a private practice, and I have people who work for me, how do I invest in their careers so that they don't want to leave, right? Or how do I invest in their careers, and they do leave, but there are 5 people knocking on the door to come work for me because they know, “boy if I go work for Josh, look what the people who have worked for him have gone on to do,” right. Like they're going to want to work for me because they see opportunity in it. They know they're going to be treated with value and respect and I'm gonna help them further their career. Yeah, I think we we have a lot of work to do, but I am excited. I think these are intentional skills that we can teach people how to do, it’s just going to take some work. 

Rahul 

OK so I'm going to double click on this culture of caring from a trainee and an early career healthcare professional perspective. So let's talk about trainees, what is the culture of caring look like for a trainee in the health professions when they're looking at a program? You've been a Program Director and certainly explored others as well, what does a great culture of caring look like? 

Josh 

Yeah. So I think, and I'll just kind of say how we set up our culture I guess as a as an example. I think one, you have to talk to the residents who are there and just ask them, “Do you feel like your program leadership cares about you?” If the answer is yes, then you could ask them, “Why?” So what does that look like for me? I think number one, when I have trainees the way I look at it is as a program we're responsible for your professional development and your personal well-being. Now you might say, “Josh, why are you responsible for your residents personal well-being? Like how can you control their personal well-being?” Well, I can't control it all, but what I can control of it, I know very well having, you know, trained hundreds of residents, that if you're struggling personally, you're not going to show up and do the best work. It's impossible. And it's the same for faculty, right. So we have to have some way of thinking about how are we taking care of people personally? Now that might mean, hey, what do our call schedules look like? Are we like working people into the ground, and not allowing them time to rest? Are we giving them weekends where they can recover? Are we giving them time off during the week sometimes so that they can actually do the things they need to do like change the oil in their vehicle or go to their own physician, right? Are we setting up schedules that allow them to take care of themselves? If one of their family members is sick or ill or dies, how do we treat them in those moments? I can assure you that no matter what else you do, if you treat them well in those moments, and you take care of them and you're like, “Hey, listen, we got you. You go do what you need to do for your mom, dad, spouse, partner, brother, sister.” They will never forget that. They will never forget how you treat them when they're in those moments. And, you know, I had a boss, Bill Schimmel, who used to say life is messy, right. And the fact is if you're a resident in a 3-year program or 4 or 5, something is going to happen in your life. So we have to support people during those times of need. That's sort of the personal side. The professional side is, look, if you're coming to my program, I'm going to have very high standards for you because I want you to leave this program having reached your full potential. If we're not helping you reach your full potential, I am failing you as a Program Director. So that means I'm going to set very high standards for you. We used to say when people would come to Walter Reed, you're not here to be mediocre. Like we're not looking for residents who are just here just to get by, right, like we have a high standard for you. But if I'm going to set that high standard for you, then I have to do things like give you the support you need to be successful. I have to give you the coaching, and the feedback, so that you can learn and grow and evolve. I might have to create opportunities for you to stretch your limits, to create opportunities that will align with your career interests and your career goals. So, you know, what does that look like? Well I've had residents for example who are interested in healthcare policy. I know nothing about healthcare policy, I won't say nothing, but like it's not my expertise, right. So how can I link this resident up with maybe a colleague or someone from a different institution to help them learn about healthcare policy. Maybe Pete. But the goal is set high standards, and then coach, give feedback, create opportunities. So that they know, when they leave, they're going to feel like number one, they're incredibly clinically prepared, that's the foundation, like you have to have the clinical skills. The second part of that is what are the other things you're really interested in? Is that teaching, is it research, is it leadership? How do we help you explore and grow and build in some of those other areas? Again, so that you feel like, man, Walter Reed was really invested in my professional development. And I think you can ask a lot of residents, “Do you feel like that's the case or not?” That will tell you the answer. But I think those are just some of the ways we would set up that culture of caring for a residency program. The feedback piece is is really challenging cause a lot of times people think, “Caring, oh that’s, it's really soft and like mushy.” Like for me to hold you accountable and tell you that you're messing up might actually be the most caring thing I do for you the entire time you're in my residency program, right. Because if I don't fix the fact that you can't interact well with others, that maybe you have some emotional intelligence that needs, you know, coaching and improvement. If I don't fix that, then I've let you down. Not only have I let you down, but I have let every single patient, every other healthcare provider that you're going to interact with over the course of your career. Like that's thousands of people, I've let them down. So if I really care about you, and I care about our healthcare system, then I have to give you that feedback. Now, I need to deliver it in a kind way, but if I care, I have to give it to you. 

Rahul 

That was  part of your book that really resonated with me. That yes, it begins with having strong personal relationships and knowing your people. And then it builds on that by setting high expectations, and giving them the support, and the feedback, and the coaching to really meet those expectations. That's truly a part of caring because you're caring for your people and in making them excel, the mission is also getting fulfilled. 

Pete 

How do you, I'm just curious, because I have high expectations of myself. I'm easier on other people. But how do you hold the bar up really high without crushing their spirit, right? Without really smothering and then making them feel bad and having them cry into the corner, right?

Josh 

Yeah, that's a great question as well. I mean there are limits and I think that's where like getting to know people, and understanding them, and like assessing the situation. Trying to figure out like how far you can push people. We obviously, we have this pandemic of burnout. So the the flip side of this actually, to that question I think Pete, one of the things I did a lot of as a resident, and actually do probably 5 times as much when I'm coaching or working with faculty at all stages, is getting them actually to do less. And it's by doing less, that they're actually able to concentrate their energy on some of the areas that they're really they really want to focus on. So I think it is setting high standards, and pushing and pushing knowing when maybe to back off. But also knowing how to prioritize and help people be focused on the things that are really going to be helpful for them. You know, sort of, I'm a big sports fan, and you know, how do you coach people to the edge without sort of pushing them over? Part of that is just feel. I wish I had a a great way to to tell you to do that, but I think it can also be a discussion between you and the person you're leading. Just checking in like, “How are you doing?” And, you know, and if you notice that they're sending you emails every day at 9:00 or 10:00 o'clock at night, well you're pushing too hard, right. Like that's not what we want. So then you maybe got to back off a little bit, and hold them accountable for their wellness. “Hey, look this is not sustainable. I see you're sending me emails at 10:00 o'clock at night. How do we fix this so that you can show up optimally at work?” 

Pete 

Wow, thank you. 

Rahul 

One more perspective is a lot of our listeners, trainees, early career professionals, they're leading from where they stand. And, you know, most of the time they're dealing with people who have not read your book. So what are some things they can do that are in their locus of control to contribute to a culture of caring and be a caring inspired leader themselves? 

Josh 

So they could just buy the book, and like recommend that someone read it. Maybe like, “Hey, this might help you Sir.” No, I wouldn't do that, it's probably not gonna go over well. I think it's a couple things, one is when you can give people feedback, and I would actually say this is an area that I wish we were all better at. Most faculty, not all but most right, like really want to be effective teachers. And they may actually be doing something that they're unaware of. They don't know how much of an impact it's having but no one has given them the feedback. So one of the things students can do is give honest feedback to their faculty about things that they think they could do better or more effective. That's one way to do it. There obviously has to be a sense of safety in that and a feeling that there won't be retribution. But most faculty, if they knew there was something they could do that would help them more effectively teach or lead their students, they would want to know that. So I think one of it is to give feedback. The other is, I think to not internalize those things personally for yourself if you're a student, right. Understand that that person means well, they're just not necessarily leading as effectively as they could, and then it has no reflection on who you are as a student. The other thing I think students can do because, we've all experienced this, is keep track sort of internally for yourself, what is it about really effective teachers that I like and that I want to do when I have that opportunity? And what is it that I've experienced that I don't want another student to ever have to experience this again? To not perpetuate and carry those traits on because I think too often what has happened in medicine is that we've had those experiences, but that's what we've observed and seeing and then we end up doing the same thing when we're in those positions. So I think having this awareness of those things and recognizing that there is a different way. Hopefully that's going to allow us to break some of this cycle of, “Well that's just how I was treated as a student or a resident or junior faculty.” We can lead in different ways when we're in those positions. 

Rahul 

Thanks, that last bit is such a great piece of advice. I remember when I was in my surgery rotation in India as a medical student, that's the first thing my surgery chief resident had told me. That in the year ahead, you're going to meet many people, and some are gonna be role models and teach you how you should be. And some are going to be the exact opposite and teach you what you will never do to anybody else in the future. And I think that's an important piece to say it because we don't want to be the person who says, “I had to do that, so you have to now as well.” We certainly want to learn those lessons and then do the best to others where it's in our locus of control. 

Josh 

Totally agree. And when I was the intern director at Walter Reed, when I met with the interns, I would exactly say that to them. “Watch everybody because in a year you're going to be a resident. What are you learning by watching that you can do or not do, that will help you be a more effective clinician, teacher, leader just simply by watching.” It's like one of the cheapest forms of leadership education we have is observing, reflecting, and being intentional about what we put in our tool belt and what we don't in terms of leadership or teaching for that matter. 

Rahul 

One other thing I would add is the interprofessional aspect, just from my own experiences. When I was in the US early on as a trainee and had very little social support, sometimes when it's not expected, acts of caring are just the most memorable and will live with you forever. So I will never forget like the nurses at the nursing station who knew that I had not had lunch or dinner that day and would like give me a little bit of whatever they had. And, you know, these are little acts of caring and when they are across professions or across hierarchies I think they stand out even more. 

Josh 

Yeah, I love that example actually. I remember very distinctly being a resident, you know, and doing like night shifts and when the nurses would invite you to eat with them like that was the best. It really made you feel like you were part of that team, that you were together and that they were, you know, there to help you. And I think we we miss opportunities sometimes just to go up to somebody and say, “Hey, listen, I know you were taking care of Mr. Smith, and Mr. Smith is like a really challenging patient. I know how mad he gets. I saw how he was treating you. I just want to say how impressed I was with how you kept your calm and like you treated him so well and you got him, you know, sort of settled. Like I don't think I would have been able to keep my cool like that. Thank you so much for doing that.”

Rahul 

Yeah, and this is after the event feedback. Sometimes I think even making that warm introduction to the patient or to the trainee for another health professional goes a long way because, you know, they may not know the other person, and do not have a relationship, but you do. And if you speak about them in a positive way, that's authentic, then it really goes a long way to build that relationship on a positive note. And what goes around comes around too. 

Josh 

Yeah. And I think to speaking positively, it reminds me of one time we were getting ready to go have a family meeting with a patient. And it was really related to a swallowing issue and, you know, what foods they can eat or not eat and aspiration. And we were getting ready to go in and fortunately we had the speech language pathologist there who would, who knew the patient. And I really, I sort of looked at team, and I'm like, “We're going to let you know this person lead this discussion because she is the expert. She knows this stuff way better than any of us do. So we want you to lead this discussion, right.” And I think in healthcare this happens all the time. Like I don't know physical therapy as well as our physical therapist does, I don't know whether you're safe to go home or not. I can make a judgement, right, but this is what they do for a living. And I think you're right, like by recognizing that, and showing, and pointing out to the team, pointing out to others, like, “Hey, this is the real expert.” Or “We're going to listen to you.” Again, it just goes back to this simple concept of do you feel valued and respected for the work you do. 

Pete 

Oh that's great. Hey Josh, I'm curious, I was been reading a little bit, and trying to distill or reflect on like your personal experiences, who you are, your purpose, your values and, you know, differentiating that from the organization's values, societal values, stuff that's all floating around in your head. How do you know what's true? That's really yours compared to everything else. That's like, well, do I really have integrity? Is that a value, is that mine? Or is that really cause Rahul said it and that's what's stuck in my head. 

Josh 

That to me, goes to us really spending some time thinking about that question. And, you know, I have a chapter on this in the book. But this is one of the exercises I like to do when I'm teaching about leadership is a values exercise, and helping people really spend time and think about, “What are my values?” And not just do it like that day, that one time, and then go about your life. But, you know, write them down, and then ask yourself at the end of each week, “Have I lived out these values?” Right, like, “What is most important to me?” And I my hope would be that if you do that, and you're intentional about it, that you go back to those. Then you are sure what your values are. Why is this important? Well because Pete, when I have to make a decision, if I don't really know what my values are, what do I use to guide me, right? I mean I can use logic, I can use, I mean we make lots of decisions in medicine, right. But some of these decisions come down to internal values that drive us. So I think spending time on those, and really being clear for you, can help you make decisions. 

So I usually think of values as like my compass. They're going to keep me on the path I need to be on in terms of where I need to go. The other thing I guess I would say about that is we can also do that with our organization. So as a residency program, we spent time talking about what our values were and what is important to us. Shockingly, like right, “caring” was one of those values. So how do we as a residency live out that value of caring so that people know about it. And do we talk about it? Because, you know, we talk a lot about culture, and how do you build a culture, but this really has to be an intentional process. If well-being is important to you and your culture, anytime you see somebody doing an act that is supporting well-being, you should try to highlight that. And remind people, “Wow hey, Rahul, listen, yesterday I saw you walk by and you saw Pete at his desk at like 6:00 o'clock.” Number one, neither one of you should have been there, but you saw Pete, you're like, “Hey, why are you still here? I know that you need to be home for something. You need to get out of here, go home.” And if I know that, then I go to you and like, “Hey, Rahul thanks for sending Pete home. Like that's a great example of upholding our value of well-being.” We need to talk about these things and make them intentional and not just like some Internet slogan, or something you see when you walk in the elevator and you're like, “Oh, those are our values? Well you wouldn't know it by the way people treat each other.” But you need to live them out and make them real. But I think as an individual leader, to get to your initial question, we need to spend some time thinking about this and, you know, writing them out and then holding ourselves accountable for living those values. 

Pete 

Great, thank you. 

Rahul 

Yeah, and the hardest part is when some of our core values clash with each other. You know, when like number one is family, and number three is service, and when they clash with each other, that's really really hard. And as Pete brought up, when your personal values might clash, or you know, get repeatedly violated in an organization, that can really weigh on you. So it is something worth reflecting on and in the long run, on the converse, if you can match your personal values, or a lot of them with the environment you work in, or the teams you create, then that can be an area of flourishing. Especially a team where people know each other's core values and are honoring, them can really make a team flourish. 

Josh 

The one point maybe to both what you said Rahul, and what Pete said, is you know, we are often in very large organizations. And sometimes our values, I mean in an ideal world yes, they align with the organizational values. Sometimes they don't line as much as we would like. One of the things I like to get people to think about though is, how can you at your level, right, which is way removed, potentially, from the senior level leadership, how can you on your particular floor in a hospital, or you in your clinic, or you know, your small space, whatever that is. How can you live out your values there and create a culture that you want and that the people around you want. It may not align completely with the organizational values, but how can you at least get those within your sphere of influence as close to living out the values that you all agree on or that you individually want to see within your workplace. 

Rahul 

Big lesson, bring it back to what's in your locus of control. What can you control? Excellent. So one of the biggest things I'm taking away from this conversation is that being a leader who's driven by caring can really make you more effective, as well as more connected. And that caring is not just about personal relationships but it's really about setting high expectations, and then supporting the heck out of your people to help them meet those high expectations and excel. Josh before we close if there's one message you hope listeners take away about leading with care what would that be. 

Josh 

It would just be what you just said. Which is that when we lead with caring, and people feel cared for, they will show up and do amazing work. So if we can intentionally lead, in the book you know that's the whole purpose of the book, is to give prescriptions or ideas about what does this actually look like? What can I do? If you show up that way, it can ignite our cultures to be more effective. There's really no greater return on investment than investing in your people and investing in them with a way that shows you care for them. These are proven strategies that are going to help people be more effective. Not only professionally, but the the better we feel at work, that leads over to how people feel at home. So you know I think these are strategies that are going to help people personally and professionally. 

Rahul 

Love that Josh. Josh, what a great conversation. It's been fantastic having you on our show and I've learned a lot from this conversation about leading with care and I hope that our listeners have as well. I'm sure they will. For anyone who wants to keep learning from Josh, his book A Prescription for Caring in Healthcare Leadership is available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and wherever books are sold. If people want to keep up with you and what you're putting out Josh, what are the best ways they can keep in touch? 

Josh 

LinkedIn is definitely my primary venue at this point. 

Rahul 

Thanks for that. Well, thank you again, it's been a joy. And to all our listeners, thanks for tuning in until next time take care and keep leading with care. 

Brooke

Thank you for listening to our show. Learning to Lead is a production of the Quinnipiac University podcast studio, in partnership with the Schools of Medicine, Nursing and Health Sciences. 

Creators of this show are Rahul Anand, Maya Doyle, Peter Longley, Amber Vargas and Brooklynn Weber.

The student producer is Brooklynn Weber, and the executive producer is David DesRoches.

Connect with us on social media @LearningToLeadPod or email us at LearningToLeadPod@quinnipiac.edu.

Episode 7: Leadership Hack - Investing in Others (feat. Joshua Hartzell, MD)

Rahul 

Welcome to Learning to Lead, a podcast about leadership, teamwork, and reimagining healthcare. This podcast is for learners, educators, and healthcare professionals interested in building leadership skills in a supportive community.

We are your hosts Rahul Anand, Maya Doyle, Peter Longley, Amber Vargas, and Brooklynn Weber.

Together we bring you conversations with emerging and established leaders, deep dives and hacks to help you become the best leader you can be.

Brooke 

In today's episode, our guest Dr. Joshua Hartzell, shares a powerful leadership hack, intentionally investing in the careers of those around you. Josh is a retired Army Colonel as well as a boarded certified Internist and Infections Disease Physician.

Rahul 

So Josh, one of our sections is Leadership Hacks. So what's one Leadership Hack to become a more caring leader as a healthcare professional?

Josh 

Yeah so probably the one that I use the most is I am on constant lookout for ways that I can invest in people's careers. Every interaction I have with somebody, unless it's maybe a clinical, but even then I'm probably like thinking about this is, OK Rahul works for me, what could I do to help Rahul's career? What could I do to help him be more successful, right? Now some days that may just simply be like, “Hey Rahul how can I help you today? I know the service is really busy. We've got lots of consults.” But more intentionally, “Hey Rahul, I know you're interested in HIV medicine. Listen, I heard there's this HIV conference coming up. What do you think? Is that something you'd be interested in going to?” Or, “Hey Rahul, I know you're really interested in academic medicine. I have a colleague who you might want to meet, who I think would be a good connection for you.” Or, “Hey I'm writing this paper, I was thinking about it but I feel like you would be a great co-author.” So I'm always looking at whoever that person is in front of me and thinking is there something I can do to help their career. And boy, what if you worked in an organization where every time your leader was thinking about how can I help the careers of the people in front of me. And you know, that might be me giving you a piece of feedback about something that you need to learn on. It might be me putting you on a committee because you being on that committee is going to be helpful for your career or you're going to learn something that will be valuable for you. So I think yeah, my probably most prominent Leadership Hack is how can I invest in the careers of the people I'm leading. 

Rahul 

You live that. I can attest to it. And that blows my mind, what would a place like that look like? It would be a just an incredible place to work. 

Pete 

Very true. 

Brooke 

Thank you for listening to this mini-episode. Stay tuned for the full episode next Tuesday, where Josh draws from his military and medical experience to share what it truly means to lead with care in healthcare. 

Brooke

Thank you for listening to our show. Learning to Lead is a production of the Quinnipiac University podcast studio, in partnership with the Schools of Medicine, Nursing and Health Sciences. 

Creators of this show are Rahul Anand, Maya Doyle, Peter Longley, Amber Vargas and Brooklynn Weber.

The student producer is Brooklynn Weber, and the executive producer is David DesRoches.

Connect with us on social media @LearningToLeadPod or email us at LearningToLeadPod@quinnipiac.edu.​​

Episode 6: Advice to Our M1 Selves

Rahul 

Welcome to Learning to Lead, a podcast about leadership, teamwork, and reimagining healthcare. This podcast is for learners, educators, and healthcare professionals interested in building leadership skills in a supportive community.

We are your hosts Rahul Anand, Maya Doyle, Peter Longley, Amber Vargas, and Brooklynn Weber.

Together we bring you conversations with emerging and established leaders, deep dives and hacks to help you become the best leader you can be.

Amber 

Hi everyone. My name is Amber Vargas. I am a fourth year medical student at Frank H. Netter School of Medicine at Quinnipiac University here in Connecticut. So if everyone could just say their name.

Adebowale 

So my name is Adebowale, but people call me Wale.

Emmanuel 

Hello, my name is Emmanuel Jomo.

Liza 

Hi, my name is Liza Landry.

Amber 

So if there's just one thing that you can tell your M1 self, what would it be? 

Adebowale 

It's never as bad as it seems. Never. I always felt like my world was like crashing around me, but it was never that bad, it really wasn't, when I looked back. And I could have used a lot of that pent up energy and frustration to, you know, do more positive things or study more or whatever. But yeah, I just felt I spent a lot of time stressing, so I would have done a lot less of that. I would tell him to just relax and fall into your hobbies, things that make you happy. And then you know, get back to work after you feel happy again. 

Emmanuel 

For me, I would say Med school is hard, so take time to enjoy the little pleasures of life when you have them. When you have the moment when you have the chance, do something fun for yourself. Do those hobbies, those little things that you know really rejuvenate you and make you happy do those because Med school is hard. 

Liza 

I'd say resilience and grit are not the same thing. Grit implies a certain level of kind of brute force, and eventually it's pretty exhausting. Resilience is a lot more bendy and flexible, and in order to have that resilience, resilience is built from small celebration of all the little moments along the way. So don't be afraid to celebrate yourself and celebrate all the small wins, because that's what you're going to fall back on when you are feeling down, when inevitably something doesn't go right or there's disappointments. You can always fall back on the things that are the little glimmers in your life and the little celebrations and that will keep you going.

Adebowale 

Absolutely. 

Amber 

For me, I would tell my M1 self to do more self-care things, like eating right, going to the gym, prioritizing those things. I think I felt like I just had to go above and beyond in terms of academics and extracurriculars and so I would tell my M1 self that it's OK to take an hour, go to the gym. You know it's OK to take an hour, cook something. So, that's what I would tell my M1 self. 

Liza 

I definitely feel like there was a lot of comparison, not not comparison like outright. But I think internally coming in that sense of impostor syndrome of feeling like everyone else has it together. I remember looking around our class and hearing people talk about this really cool research project they were doing, and that was always something that I felt really self-conscious about that I didn't feel strong in. There were other people who were doing, who had just the coolest back stories and such interesting paths to where they were. I was like, how am I ever going to measure up to these kinds of people when I have to when I have to apply to residency. And like I, I had confused the growth mindset for if you just push yourself harder and harder and harder and harder then you'll be successful. And I think it's really hard to navigate like that comparison of being like, OK, none of us are going to have all the same strengths. And that's what makes us such a great class. And I think that's what makes us such diverse providers in all the different fields that we're all going into.

Amber 

I think we all have feelings like that, you know, like, I felt like that towards everyone in this room. You know, Liza like you would speak up and in our group sessions, and you had all your cheat sheets. And I was like, oh, my goodness, what am I doing wrong? I don't know all this stuff. You know, like everyone, you know, had their own strengths in their own ways. And I think it also helped the rest of us feel motivated and inspired, like OK well, I can do that too. That person is doing that. Let me ask them what they're doing like, let. Let's connect, right? Let's do it together. 

Emmanuel 

Yeah. 

Brooke

Thank you for listening to our show. Learning to Lead is a production of the Quinnipiac University podcast studio, in partnership with the Schools of Medicine, Nursing and Health Sciences. 

Creators of this show are Rahul Anand, Maya Doyle, Peter Longley, Amber Vargas and Brooklynn Weber.

The student producer is Brooklynn Weber, and the executive producer is David DesRoches.

Connect with us on social media @LearningToLeadPod or email us at LearningToLeadPod@quinnipiac.edu.

Episode 5: Reflections from Netter’s Class of 2025 — Four Years of Growth, Grit, and Gratitude

Rahul 

Welcome to Learning to Lead, a podcast about leadership, teamwork, and reimagining healthcare. This podcast is for learners, educators, and healthcare professionals interested in building leadership skills in a supportive community.

We are your hosts Rahul Anand, Maya Doyle, Peter Longley, Amber Vargas, and Brooklynn Weber.

Together we bring you conversations with emerging and established leaders, deep dives and hacks to help you become the best leader you can be.

Rahul 

Hi everyone, welcome to this episode of Learning to Lead. Today, we're excited to share our platform with the graduating medical student class of 2025. They're sharing their journeys through the four years of medical school. With me is our co-host, Amber, facilitating this conversation. Amber, take it away. 

Amber 

Hi everyone. My name is Amber Vargas. I am a fourth year medical student at Frank H. Netter School of Medicine at Quinnipiac University here in Connecticut. Excited about this episode, we'll take you on our journey through medical school and a snippet of our lives prior to and where we're going next. So we'll get started with some introductions. So if everyone could just say their name, background, hometown and what were you doing when you were accepted to medical school? 

Adebowale 

So my name is Adebowale, but people call me Wale. I was born in Rhode Island, Providence, Rhode Island and when I was accepted I was just in my apartment, wasn't doing anything special. I just opened my email and yeah, it was exciting.

Emmanuel 

Hello, my name is Emmanuel Jomo. I was born in Ghana, that's where I was raised. I had my primary and secondary education there, and I moved here for college in New York. When I was accepted to Med school, I was in the lab. I got the time to check my phone, and that's when I saw the email. And I remember making a very wild and exciting shout that drew everybody in the lab to where I was. They thought something was going on. 

Amber 

Oh no. Like, “What's going on?” 

Emmanuel 

Yeah. And when they kind of came into the room and I was like, I got into Med school and everybody was like shouting, “Congratulations.” Yeah, it was fun. 

Liza 

Hi, my name is Liza Landry. I am originally from Sacramento, California but came over to the East Coast 12 years ago or so. Did undergrad, did a Masters program and then I was working as a Tech in the ED in Boston and was coming off a night shift, woke up just scrolling through my email. And saw the email that I was accepted to medical school. So I tried to actually like be really quiet because I wanted to surprise my husband. So I crept up behind him while he was like on a work meeting, waited for him to to get off, and then told him, like, super casually. And he was like, “Wait, what? Come again?” He was like, “What?” That was fun. 

Amber 

That's awesome. Yeah. I remember when I got my decision, I couldn't believe it. I was like, what? You know, after getting, like, lots of waitlists and rejections, you just think the next one is possibly also. 

Liza 

Well, and the title in the email said like “Application Decision,” and so that that never ended up being a good email. 

Emmanuel 

Right. Yeah, yeah, I think I had to read like like 5 lines to actually realize I got accepted. 

Amber 

Yeah, yeah. 

Amber 

Awesome. Thank you all for sharing. OK. So then now you're super excited, you got into Med school. This is what you've been dreaming of. You're going to be a doctor. What were some of the fears you were having about starting this journey, embarking on this journey? 

Liza 

So I was married before medical school started, and so I was moving my husband from across the street from his office, where he was able to walk and be in person. And he's been very career focused like up until that point. And so there's, like, just a lot of pressure of uprooting someone else to go on this journey with you, like being the support system for a medical student or for any of us going through this process, whether it's friends, family, spouses, kids, whatever. It's hard and so I think I felt the weight of that. Pretty intensely. So I think that was probably the biggest stressor for me personally, just because he was amazing. But it was definitely tough. 

Adebowale 

I would say for me, I didn't see myself as like a typical Med school applicant. I didn't decide until my senior year of college that I wanted to go to medical school, so I had to kind of take these post-bacc classes and I was not the best student at all. But I'm relentless, when I want something like I really go after it. So I got like straight As after that and I got in. But still like, coming here, I guess I was comparing myself to what I thought people would be like. A bunch of people with 4.0, and I was just like a little insecure, a little imposter syndrome. But when I got here everybody was like down to earth and chill. So that kind of alleviated fairly quickly. 

Emmanuel 

Yeah. So I was afraid that I would not be able to live up to the expectation of what a medical student should be, and is supposed to be like you know. Even though I mean, my family was in New York and I came to Connecticut, I was still afraid that I might not be able to spend any time with them. I had kind of, like, read all these horror stories about medical school. Like you have no time to do anything. So I was afraid that, you know, my big, my community was important to me, my family, that I will not be able to have time for them or I will not be able to keep all the friendships that I had. I was afraid of that. I also consider myself like a non-traditional applicant. So at that point, I had been out of school for about 3 years. And so jumping right back into, like, medical school, I was so afraid that I don't know. I feel like I wouldn't know what to do, like how to study. I feel like I I just don't remember anything. What it means to be a student anymore. So I was just kind of afraid of, afraid of that. But it didn't end up to be, it ended up being like something actually fun and it wasn't as I expected it was going to be, yeah. 

Amber 

Did you make time to see your family? 

Emmanuel 

Ohh yeah, every break that we had, I was going back to New York. 

Amber 

Nice. Very nice. Alright, so now you've done Med school. Everyone here are fourth year medical students. You're coming towards the end of your medical school journey, about to graduate in a few months, few weeks actually. Tell us the hardest things about medical school or anything that was difficult up at a particular stage of the journey. Anything you would have done differently? Liza, you want to get us started. 

Liza 

Sure. So I mean I think what I said earlier about the, the pressure you feel as a medical student where your career just kind of really dictates your life and the life of the people around you and what you're able to participate in and how available you are. And it kind of creates the schedule for everyone around you because of just how busy we are in medical school, and then the fact that like when we go to residency, we don't really have like options that we can choose from so to speak. We have the match that just kind of tells us where we go and it it works out generally. But I think just that sense of loss of control through the process is pretty challenging I think throughout and so just trying to find ways to soak in the moments that bring joy and that kind of spark, that excitement about the process or the excitement about the job and just excitement about like life outside of medical school and outside of healthcare are really, really important to help stay grounded throughout everything. Emmanuel, what do you think? 

Emmanuel 

Yeah. I think one of the top things was the constant adjustment that you had to kind of navigate, especially how medical school is kind of sectioned into different blocks and you are learning what you would probably learn in your two years of anatomy or biochemistry. You're learning in like 6 like 6 weeks. And then you kind of had to like pivot and go to something else, like every six weeks. I think that was the toughest thing because you had to figure out how to study. And the way you study for one block will be completely different from the way you study for the next block. And I think that was the toughest one trying to navigate it on top of that, when you actually started the third year, which is a whole different learning curve like clinical experiences that you know going through the rotations, that was also super challenging, especially in our school, where you have to go through different like hospitals and different healthcare systems. I think that was like the most challenging part of Med school. 

Adebowale 

Yeah, I would agree with that. And also what Liza said about like just kind of like balancing your life, your personal life, with school, that was the hardest part for me. I felt that the material that we were learning wasn't hard. It wasn't something that you can't like grasp, but it's the amount of it. On top of, like, things that may happens in life, you may have, like, a loss of a friend or a mother, right. You might have mental health issues that talk to develop. And it just makes it hard to balance everything that's going on. So a block that's not particularly hard can become really hard if you have a lot of things that are going on. So for me, like you know, having hobbies and things that make me happy was really important to, like staying afloat. For sure. 

Amber 

Thank you guys for sharing. Changing gears a little bit, so thinking through your Med school journey, think about each year. Is there a time or can you pinpoint an example of when you started to learn more about the other health professional members of the team, for example, nurses, social work, physician assistants? When did you start interacting with them? Getting an idea of what they know, what their scope of practice is. Emmanuel, you want to get us started. 

Emmanuel 

Yeah. So I think for me, it started in second year when we would do like a case, when we would discuss cases. I don't remember what we called it. I forgot.

Adebowale 

PBL. 

Emmanuel 

PBL, yeah. Practice Problem Based Learning, yeah. Problem Based Learning where we would discuss cases and I think my school did a good job with incorporating sometimes some of these like people like some other students from different healthcare professionals to come and discuss some of those cases with us. I remember there was one time we had a case that had to do with some social work and we had a social worker student come and sit in the PBL and discussing. So that is when I began learning more about, you know, what is the scope of practice for that. And even like sometimes when we would do these like sessions where we do like ultrasound and X-ray. My school did a good job with pairing us with like X-ray Techs, you know, ultrasound Techs, right? Those students. And so that kind of helped us, helped me, kind of learn what like what is like the the scope of their practice? Like, how do they learn, how how long is their program, their training, what are they trained to do and not trained to do? 

Liza 

Those were super helpful. Yeah. 

Emmanuel 

I think it was really helpful, but I think ultimately starting third year rotations when seeing everything come together is when I learned more about how these different healthcare professionals, their roles in the healthcare system. Yeah. 

Adebowale 

Yeah, I actually forgot about those like PBL's and how they had different people come to speak to us. Whenever I get asked that question, I thought more about like third year, and going to different hospitals and different practices. And nurses in different specialties are definitely different like Emergency Medicine nurses, they have their own personality, Psychiatric nurses have their different personality. So it was really cool to like rotate through different spots and see how the workflow is a little different. 

Amber 

Yeah. 

Emmanuel 

Right. 

Liza 

I think so. Actually, when I was when I was growing up, my mom was a PA, but she was actually an MD who trained in Russia, didn't go to residency, went to PA school here. And after school when I was in middle school and high school, I'd go to her office and just sit and do my homework in her office. And so I'd see, like, the MA's come over and talk to her and the nurses in the office and I’d see what she was doing, versus the MD's. And then when I finished college, I was working as a Tech in the ED and so that was I think my biggest exposure to a lot of other professions. So like PT, OT would come and evaluate some of the patients for discharge and working really closely with nursing and the other techs and like there's so many different like professions that come together in the ED and just like in inpatient medicine or in inpatient medicine, like in the hospital in general. And then I think that again like like Emmanuel mentioned, and Wale mentioned, like on rotations and then in PBL like I think our school tried to create opportunities for us to kind of get that exposure which was really nice. But yeah, I think there's been a lot of different experiences, like from different lenses that I think have helped shape my understanding of like all the different professions that go into patient care. 

Amber 

Yeah. 

Adebowale 

Really get to appreciate like different, you know, professions. Like nurses do a lot, and I didn’t realize that, like they're so busy. 

Amber 

Yeah, they do everything. 

Liza 

Yeah, your eyes and ears for all your, for all our patients. 

Adebowale 

Absolutely. 

Amber 

So thinking about specialty, So what were you thinking you might have gone into when you came to medical school? Like, what were your aspirations? What were your career goals? How did that change throughout medical school and what did you ultimately end up applying to for your residency application? 

Adebowale 

I came in thinking Primary Care, Psychiatry, some along those lines. I've done a lot of work as a counselor for a little while, for young adolescent men I worked in Group homes with people who had mental disabilities. So something along those lines just working directly with people. So I was thinking like, yeah, like? Psychiatry and I kind of stuck to that path throughout the way. At one point I was thinking surgery, but then during my surgery rotation I found out very quickly that it wasn't. Yeah. So yeah, and I stuck on that and I ended up applying to Psychiatry. 

Emmanuel 

For me, I came to medical school thinking, I thought I was going to be an Oncologist. So when I came, my trajectory was to do a lot of, like, research while in Med school, apply to Internal Medicine and then go in a Heme-onc fellowship. And then at the end of third year, I just decided I was going to do Ophthalmology and I ended up applying to Ophthalmology. 

Amber 

How did you decide? 

Emmanuel 

Well, I I think that once I hit third year, I realized that I I became like more open-minded and I realized that I wanted to use the rotations to really explore what my interest or where my interest lies. And so at every rotation I could see myself doing something in it. And the people who were close to me at that point thought I was insane because like after Pediatrics, I was like, I think I'm going to be a Pediatrician. After like Family Med, I'm like I'm gonna be a Family Med like, I really enjoyed pretty much different things. But at the end of my third year, I was still not decided. I thought I was going to do Internal Medicine just because it opens doors for me, so that later on I can do a fellowship. But I didn't really know what I wanted to do, but I had some experience in eye care where I studied optometry in Ghana, growing up. And so I decided to explore that and do a rotation in Ophthalmology to see what happens. So in two, it was a two week rotation and when I started it first week, I realized that there are a little bit of everything in Ophthalmology. Like I get to see pediatric patients, I get to do a lot of like procedures in one day, I get to be in OR when I choose to, I get to see patients from the moment they were born as they are born as a baby up until the time they pass. And also seeing the relationship between like Ophthalmologists and their patients was something that was like really like, exciting. I really enjoyed that. Most of them had built like, you know, 20 years of relationship, 10 years, and that was the aspect of Primary Care that I really enjoyed. And so I realized that the little thing that I enjoyed in each specialty, fit in Ophthalmology in a way that I never saw before. So I walked out of that two weeks thinking, “This is what I want to do,” and I went. 

Amber 

Alright, that's awesome. Very nice, Liza. 

Liza 

I came in thinking I wanted to do Emergency Medicine, but I wanted to keep my mind open to all the specialties. So I would go into my I came into my third year rotations kind of similar to Emmanuel, where at some point during the rotation I would come home be like I “I think this is what I want to do,” and the first couple times that I said this my husband was like OK all right, like I'm on board. That sounds good. Like OK. And then I come home a couple weeks later and I'd be like, “I don't think this is for me, I don't know what I'm going to do.” He's like he's “I think you want to do EM.” I was like, “No, but what about all the drawbacks.” And so then I remember I saw my first, I saw my first brain surgery like my second day of my surgery rotation and I was like, I came home, sobbing and Drake was like, “What's wrong?” Drake’s, my husband. Because, like, “What's wrong?” And I was like, “Drake, I did not set up my life to go into Neurosurgery.” And that quickly, that, that desire quickly passed. I have a lot of respect for Neurosurgeons. It's amazing. Very cool surgery. Couldn't do it. But yeah, I found myself just kind of drawn, drawn to the triage of Emergency Medicine. So but I didn't get to rotate an Emergency Medicine to kind of confirm that until fourth year, unfortunately. So all of third year was kind of this endless existential crisis of, like, what specialty will I go into? I thought I wanted to do OB for a little bit. As I loved L&D because it felt like a very niche kind of ED. It was such a happy specialty, it was so cool. I loved the connection with patients and such like a critical point in time. But then when I rotated through the ED, it just kind of captured all of my favorite pieces of medicine. It felt really raw. It felt extremely human. It really prioritized building that connection with people very quickly, and it was just, yeah, it was just awesome. And when I came home from my ED rotations, my husband even noted he's like, “Liza, you belong in the ED.” Like this is he's like, “I've never seen you so happy coming home from rotations, even when you're working like rotating shifts in days and nights and like staying a little bit longer on some of your shifts like this is by far the happiest I've ever seen you.” And so that just kind of confirmed it for me. 

Adebowale 

Yeah, well said. 

Amber 

For me, my story is a little unique in the sense that I came in thinking one thing and ended up doing that thing. But but the the road was not, not linear, no it it was not at all. I have previous experience with the Emergency Medicine as an EMT, I worked in an ED, so I came in thinking, OK, most likely Emergency Medicine because I loved it. But I wanted to keep an open mind knowing that like, I hadn't explored other aspects of medicine. So I came in and I'm thinking, OK, most likely emergency, but I I joined like every student group 2nd year. Do you remember that? 

Emmanuel 

Yeah. Signing up for everything. 

Amber 

Yes, I just, I wanted to get involved. I wanted to see like what was really for me because I had all these different interests, but I didn't know which interest would be a passion. So I just wanted to explore. So during preclinical I was like, “ohh, I really like Neurology,” and I really liked what else I really like Repro. I really liked, I liked so many different things. And then I thought I would do those things. Then clinical year is really when things just were really dynamic, you know like I did Peds. I really thought I was going to be a Pediatrician for a little bit. I thought I was going to be an OB/GYN for a little bit. I thought I was going to be a surgeon for a little bit. I really just kept changing and then I decided on surgery, actually. I was like, OK, I'm going to do surgery. I loved it. I loved being in the OR, I loved the procedures. Where I did my surgical core rotation, the surgery residents did everything. They were running around the whole hospital cause it was a Community Hospital, so they were all over the place. And I absolutely love that. So that's what made me think I want to do surgery. Then I was on my surgery sub-I, and I'm like wait, I don't know. This is not the same. What's going on here? You know, I did my sub-I at an academic center, so it was very different. And I was like, OK, what was I truly liking about that other rotation and what is it that I truly want to do with the rest of my life. And I'm like, OK, I have these other passions, I like leadership, I like community, I like to be involved. I like to to build these meaningful relationships. So what field would allow me to do that? 

And that brought me back to Emergency Medicine. I realized that I love the residents running all over the hospital doing everything, because that's what you do in the ED. I realized I was liking Pediatrics and OBGYN and surgery, I was liking everything because I like a little bit of everything. That brought me back to the ED. And then the community, you know, front and center. So that's a little bit about my journey. 

Emmanuel 

Yeah, it's interesting how when we are taught to think about choosing specialties, we think of it in terms of the specialty itself or like the, for example, Pediatrics like the whole entirety. But I think you're bringing out something very important thinking about what about the specialty that draws you into it, like rather than the block itself? I want to be a pediatrician. I want to be an OBGYN. But it's about while you are in it and during the rotation, is there an aspect of it that draws you into it? I think that's what helps you kind of figure out what you want to do. You know, what is important. 

Amber 

Absolutely, yeah. 

Adebowale 

Also like the lifestyle to it too, like you can want to be a surgeon. But can you live the surgeon life? Can you work like 6 days in a row, seven days in a row and not see your family and kids?

Emmanuel 

Right. 

Adebowale 

All those things are important and even like if you start medical school at age 26, by the time you're 33, are you still going to want to, like, do certain things? So things just change. So, I think it's important to consider like the lifestyle of the specialty.

Liza 

Yeah, that was actually one of the reasons I, I really wanted to want to be like a Family Med doc. I really wanted to want, like a nine to five because I was like, well, that's what everyone says. Is like the ideal work-life balance. That's that's what I'm supposed to want for work-life balance. And then when I was on my outpatient rotations, I was like miserable. Yeah, I would come home and I was like Drake. The sunlight is gone. There's no light. And then I have two days, two days in the week to go get sunlight. I was like, this doesn't work for me. I'm a complicated plant. And so I think there's so many people who love like a nine to five and and for me, I love the idea of switching my schedule up all the time, because otherwise I feel like it's just too monotonous and predictable. And I'm like that just it's not for me, but everyone kind of has the life that they want to build for themselves and like kind of going through rotations and seeing everybody find their niche is really, really cool. 

Amber 

Absolutely. I agree. Yeah. And in Emergency Medicine, something that's unique about it is like you can have a weekday off. Like you can do something while everyone else is at work. Kids go to school, everyone goes to work, you do your own thing, yeah. 

Adebowale 

Mm-hmm. And a piece of advice I would give to students is to not be afraid to ask personal questions to like attendings, like, even if it's something like, that's like a taboo topic. Like money. If you ask them, I feel like a lot of them are, like, open to talk about how much they make, what expectations are versus reality, how happy they really are, you know, ask questions. 

Amber 

Absolutely. They might be thinking it's taboo to bring it up, right? They don't know that you wanna know. So if you wanna know, I mean, I see myself as a physician who would want the student to ask me. I wouldn't bring it up because I don't know if they wanna know. But I'm happy to talk about those things. So, yeah, that’s a good point. All right, so this is a general question, how did you grow throughout your medical school journey? How did you engage in leadership development during medical school and how did it impact you personally or professionally? 

Emmanuel

I think for me, it was through the Leadership Class that's given us this opportunity to recall this. I I think that was what helped me grow personally during my four years of medical school because I think they gave us the opportunity to do this early on in first year. And then this course like going through self, going through systems, all those things. I think the things that we learned from this course was really important in shaping me who I was individually and also like what type of leader I want to be. 

Adebowale 

I would agree with that. I didn't have too many leadership positions in the school. I wasn't really too involved to be honest. But I would say like the leadership class told me a lot about myself. One of my favorite things in this class was about staying on your side of the fence. That's my favorite. You know, thing that I've learned because I felt that during that time I was going through a lot of interpersonal struggles and I found myself in a lot of like emotional turmoil and taking out other people's problems. But employing that concept into my life, I learned to just kind of separate things and leave my emotions on this side of the fence. And you know, their emotions are on that side of the fence. And I can acknowledge other people, the things they're going through without, like, you know, stepping on their side, having them step on my side. So I felt that this, this course, the leadership course really taught me a lot about myself. 

Liza 

Yeah, the managing yourself that I learned through the leadership course was amazing. And I actually I didn't take it during M1, but I was in a couple of leadership positions during my M1 year one of which was the student Rep for one of our courses. And there were some moments where people felt like their feedback wasn't heard, or that it was heard, or it was misconstrued. And so  someone that was in the leadership course actually told me about the staying on your side of the fence concept. And that was the first thing that kind of made me really curious about this course and made me email Doctor Anand be like, “Hi can can we please, can we please have this in M2? Thank you.”  

Amber 

I remember when you put that on a form and it sparked my interest, I was like, “What does she mean? Stay on your side of the net.” But that's such a great term. You know, in terms of like when you're giving feedback, right? Like, you know, it's really about explaining what's going on on your side instead of just like attacking the others or vice versa. 

Liza 

And it also like reinforces boundaries in like a healthy way without it being stonewalling and just actually wanting to volley a ball across, it's just it's such a great analogy. It's wonderful. 

Adebowale 

And I think will be very useful in residency because things are gonna be so busy and there's gonna be into, there's going to be a lot of room for like misinterpretation and different personalities. So being able to manage other people and, you know, their little quirks and it's important to keeping yourself sane and keeping a nice workflow. 

Liza 

Yeah. 

Amber 

Yeah. And knowing that you also have your own quirks, right? Like so keep them over here. Yeah. Yeah, no. Great analogy overall. 

Rahul 

This is Rahul. I'm curious if it came up on the interview trail at all. 

Liza 

Oh yeah, oh yeah, absolutely. 

Emmanuel 

Oh, it was, yeah. 

And especially like during the time that we were talking about Ikigai, you know, the reason for being and figuring out why? Like what moves you? What makes you, you? I think it was also around the time that we were writing our personal statements. And I think all came in super neatly because like you are thinking about who you are as a person, what moves you, what is the real reason for being a physician and for choosing the specialty that you're choosing and taking that and applying it to your personal statement. I think that was also really, really great. 

Amber 

Sounds like we all really had this course intertwined with what we were doing in real time in medical school. Thank you, Doctor Anand. Thank you. 

Rahul 

One of the greatest pleasures is when we get to throw things in some of the sessions when you cross the net, yeah. 

Amber 

All right guys, so what are some things that you're proud of about your medical school journey? And we spoke a lot about fears and challenges and, you know what are just some things that you're proud of and that you reflect on, like, oh, yeah, I did that. 

Adebowale 

For me, I would say I took Step 1 and Step 2 back-to-back, so that was a really hard time like it was just months of just studying. That's all I did was study, go to the gym, come home, study, go to the gym. I did that on repeat. And so, you know, getting the pass for Step 1 and getting a decent score on Step 2, I just felt really proud of myself and I felt like the time I invested in the studying was like, you know, well worth it. So I felt proud of myself. Thank you. 

Liza 

I think I felt proud of myself that, I know as an undergrad I wasn't very I wasn't a very strong student, I didn't really know how to study. During my masters, I feel like I learned how to study, but I kind of overworked, felt like I had kind of overworked myself during it. And I think in medical school I got to a point where I felt like I understood what I needed to do in order to do well and learn what I needed to learn. But I think I started to kind of respect my own boundaries of, how much of myself I was willing to give to my career and to medical school and how much I needed to just reserve for myself. And I think finding that balance and continuing to try to find that balance was something that I just wasn't very good at in the past. And I think I've gotten a lot better at throughout. That's I think, that's probably the biggest, biggest thing that I feel like proud of through this. 

Emmanuel 

I think for me, two things come to mind. The first one is when I was at the end of my second well, first year I was able to present a PowerPoint. I made a oral presentation at a national conference and it was like out of like, a work that I was able to do in he summer. So before my school I started a project, and I was able to continue the project like lab work in medical school and be able to write about it and be able to make a PowerPoint presentation about it. I think I felt super proud cause like having that moment like at a national conference and having that overall presentation, I think I was super proud of it. I think the second one was when I actually matched and I think that was another super proud moment cause applying to, you know, the residency and making all these application at the time when I felt like I was a really late applicant because I didn't decide early, I kind of decided in the last minute and to kind of put together an application in March, I think I was really proud of that. 

Amber

Yeah, that takes us into the next question which I was going, they say like one of the biggest things that, you know, medical students are proud of is matching. You know, medical students who are pursuing clinical careers after Med school, you know, some medical students decide to pursue other careers, post Med school. But for those who are looking to move into the clinical space, matching is a big milestone, a cornerstone of medical school for us. So we can segue into how match went. We just had our match a few days ago. Well, ophthalmology matches early, so Emmanuel has known for a little bit now, but we can, you know share those results because that's something that we should all be very, very proud of. 

Emmanuel 

Yes. So I matched into Ophthalmology. see the app state, Syracuse super excited Syracuse. Here I come. 

Amber 

Where? Where? 

Emmanuel 

SUNY Upstate, Syracuse. Super excited Syracuse, here I come. 

Amber 

Awesome. New York. 

Adebowale 

I matched Psychiatry at Howard University Hospital in Washington, DC. 

Liza 

I matched Emergency Medicine at UC Davis Medical Center in Sacramento. 

Amber 

Congrats guys. Such huge achievements, huge achievements. I also matched into Emergency Medicine at Yale, New Haven Hospital. 

Adebowale 

Congrats. 

Emmanuel 

Congrats, yeah. 

Amber

Thank you. Thank you guys. So if there's just one thing that you can tell your M1 self, what would it be? 

Adebowale 

It's never as bad as it seems. Never. I always felt like my world was like crashing around me, but it was never that bad, it really wasn't, when I looked back. And I could have used a lot of that pent up energy and frustration to, you know, do more positive things or study more or whatever. But yeah, I just felt I spent a lot of time stressing, so I would have done a lot less of that. I would tell him to just relax and fall into your hobbies, things that make you happy. And then you know, get back to work after you feel happy again. 

Emmanuel 

For me, I would say Med school is hard, so take time to enjoy the little pleasures of life when you have them. When you have the moment when you have the chance, do something fun for yourself. Do those hobbies, those little things that you know really rejuvenate you and make you happy do those because Med school is hard. 

Liza 

I'd say resilience and grit are not the same thing. Grit implies a certain level of kind of brute force, and eventually it's pretty exhausting. Resilience is a lot more bendy and flexible, and in order to have that resilience, resilience is built from small celebration of all the little moments along the way. So don't be afraid to celebrate yourself and celebrate all the small wins, because that's what you're going to fall back on when you are feeling down, when inevitably something doesn't go right or there's disappointments. You can always fall back on the things that are the little glimmers in your life and the little celebrations and that will keep you going.

Adebowale 

Absolutely. 

Amber 

For me, I would tell my M1 self to do more self-care things, like eating right, going to the gym, prioritizing those things. I think I felt like I just had to go above and beyond in terms of academics and extracurriculars and so I would tell my M1 self that it's OK to take an hour, go to the gym. You know it's OK to take an hour, cook something. So, that's what I would tell my M1 self. 

Liza 

I definitely feel like there was a lot of comparison, not not like comparison like outright. But I think internally coming in that sense of impostor syndrome of feeling like everyone else has it together. I remember looking around our class and hearing people talk about this really cool research project they were doing, and 

like that was always something that I felt really self-conscious about that I didn't feel strong in. There were other people who were doing, who had just like, the coolest just back stories and such interesting, like, paths to where they were. I was like, how am I ever going to measure up to these kinds of people like when I have to when I have to apply to residency. And like I I just, I had confused the growth mindset for like if you just push yourself harder and harder and harder and harder then you'll be successful. And I think it's really hard to navigate like that comparison of being like, OK, like you none of us are going to have all the same strengths. And that's what makes us such a great class. And I think that's what makes us such diverse providers in all the different fields that we're all going into.

Amber 

I think we all have feelings like that, you know, like, I felt like that towards everyone in this room. You know, Liza like you would speak up and in our group sessions, and you had all your cheat sheets. And I was like, oh, my goodness, what am I doing wrong? I don't know all this stuff. You know, like everyone, you know, had their own strengths in their own ways. And I think it also helped the rest of us feel motivated and inspired, like OK well, I can do that too. That person is doing that. Let me ask them what they're doing like, let. Let's connect, right? Let's do it together. 

Emmanuel 

Yeah. 

Rahul 

So you've arrived now as physicians, you're looking to go into your specialties and you are the future of healthcare. You're the present and the future of healthcare. You're trained in leadership as well. How do you think you're going to be different from the existing crop of healthcare workers? How are you going to build the healthcare system of the future differently? 

Amber 

I think for me it's always about community and belonging. I feel like that's the cornerstone of, like, successful, like, feeling a sense of community and belonging for myself, like in terms of being productive within my own life and my own career. But then also like teams like the people you're working with. I feel like it's important to check in, see how they're doing, let them know that you care about what's going on on their side of the net. You know, like that's what fosters community and belonging. And then on a larger scale, when teams feel like they belong, and that this is their community, then they care about the overall system and how that system is performing. So I think it really starts with that, like that's just one thing for me that I'm looking to bring into healthcare now as a resident. And then of attending in the future like just, you know, staying true to that mission of community and belonging is important to me. 

Adebowale 

Yeah. I would agree with that. I just want to move as a physician as like an authentic, like, approachable person. I wanna know it's really important to me to, like, welcome to the room and acknowledge everyone who's in the room say good morning to anybody, no matter what their position is like. I just want to be someone who, like, kind of breaks that barrier down between, like, the community and the physician because some people can be intimidated by physicians, believe it or not. So I just want to be someone who's like, you know, just like you, I'm a normal person. And a second point is that I want to inspire like young men of color to like do more and to like get into medical school or to health care if you want to. I didn't meet a black physician until I was 23, a black male physician. And before I met him, I'd even really imagine what I thought he'd be like. Maybe at one point I thought he was white, but then I walked into the room and I'm 6’3” and he was taller than I was, and he's a black male. I was like, “Wow, and you're a doctor.” That moment was like really inspirational for me. So I just want to be a good example for other people, you know, show people that you can do it. 

Amber 

You did it. 

Rahul 

Love that, love that. 

Emmanuel 

Yeah, I think I want to echo what Adebowale said, and also bring my authentic self into making an impact in the lives of others. I think that's one of those things that has been like it sounds cliche, but it's like my mission statement is to make impact and touch lives wherever I find myself. So bringing that, you know, creating a community wherever I find myself and being the leader that leverages the strengths of others to accomplish a common goal. And so that's what I hope to bring into healthcare that will all be people who would cherish our diversity. In the things that we do and the different fields that we have so that we can bring all the strengths that we have from every different background wherever we are and accomplish a specific goal to impact the lives of the people that we are taking care of. 

Liza 

I think similarly to what you guys have said so far, I want to prioritize being someone that's approachable and being someone that I feel like patients don't feel as much of a need to, I guess, impress. I think a lot of the time patients will when we ask them like, “What's your diet like? What are you doing for exercise?” And just different questions. They'll say one thing, and then they'll sit and think for a second. Be like, well, actually, and then go into some of the challenges that they have. And I think just being a safe space for both patients and for people that I work with, I think will hopefully create a better dynamic and also just allow for more patient like autonomy so that I can meet them where they're at and try to help them set and reach achievable goals even though I'll be in the ED, there's small things, just counseling about like setting up a primary care provider, or following up with with PT, or getting in touch with social work to work out a situation that may be inhibiting them from getting certain healthcare that they really, or certain needs met that they really should get met because they're human. They deserve that. So I think just kind of approaching medicine from like a very human perspective and trying to prioritize that, like patient education in a way that feels comfortable. 

Emmanuel 

Yeah. 

Amber 

Alright guys, you are all going to be amazing physicians. Like just listening to you each speak for this session has been inspiring and amazing. So thank you for being vulnerable. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for being here today. One thing that we do at the end of our session is just key takeaways. So just one thing that you took away from this discussion. Maybe something you learned today, something you thought about, or just something that you want the listeners to take with them. 

Adebowale 

I'll say just to kind of, just be yourself. Like as I'm, you know, listening to everyone, everyone here just has such a unique personality. But the thing I love about you guys is that you guys are all being yourselves. So I would just say that no matter where you are first year, second year, just like be yourself. If you feel like you're incompetent or you're not doing something right, just, you know, just be in the moment and just be yourself. Because, like I said earlier, it's never as bad as it seems. So just move authentically and just be honest and everything will workout in the end. 

Emmanuel 

I think what a key take away is I think where we're sharing one thing that we would do differently, starting Med school all over again. I think everybody echoed doing something fun and you know, celebrating little wins. I think that would be even more so going forward in residency. So that's something that I'm definitely taking away that when things get tough, when things get difficult, residency is probably going to be even much harder then I ever imagined, and so taking time to celebrate the wins, taking time to do something fun, taking time to have some me moments, some self-care moments. I think that's something that I'm taking away. 

Liza 

I just really love our class. I'm just so excited for everybody. Yeah, I think that's that's my biggest. Because I'm like, I'm sad that I'm that we're graduating and like I think there's so many people that I wish I had more time with, but I'm so excited for everybody. 

Emmanuel 

Mm-hmm. 

Amber 

Same same. I think one thing for me is I think I realized that we're now like in this position where people look up to us like we’ve spent our time looking up to other people and seeking.

Liza 

We create. 

Emmanuel 

All the post-match panels. 

Amber 

Yes, and seeking guidance from others. But we're now in this this position where, you know medical students, pre meds e they're looking at us, like how do I get there? Yeah, just I don't know, it just kind of clicked for me that we're in this position now and you know, to be open and vulnerable with people who are seeking our mentorship is important. 

Rahul 

Yeah. First of all, what a beautiful journey through the last four years. That was a delight. Thank you, guys. And what I'm taking away is that when the story began, when you entered medical school after the initial excitement, there was really a period of finding yourself. It's like you lost yourself in the chaos and to-dos of medical school. And then you did find yourself. And then it's like a light went on and now that light is shining bright, it's radiating, it's ready to go. Spread all over, you know, help patients change our healthcare system for the better. So we are really proud of what you've done and who you've become and look forward to incredible things from all of you in the future. And you our listeners, we'd love to hear from you as well what resonated with you, what was left unanswered and you would like to ask our panelists. Feel free to continue the conversation. Tag us on social media or drop a comment. We'd love to hear from you. Thanks for tuning in. And until next time, take care and keep leading and keep learning. 

Brooke

Thank you for listening to our show. Learning to Lead is a production of the Quinnipiac University podcast studio, in partnership with the Schools of Medicine, Nursing and Health Sciences. 

Creators of this show are Rahul Anand, Maya Doyle, Peter Longley, Amber Vargas and Brooklynn Weber.

The student producer is Brooklynn Weber, and the executive producer is David DesRoches.

Connect with us on social media @LearningToLeadPod or email us at LearningToLeadPod@quinnipiac.edu.

Episode 4: Leading with Head and Heart — Dr. Lisa Coplit’s Journey from Student to Dean

Rahul 

Welcome to Learning to Lead, a podcast about leadership, teamwork, and reimagining healthcare. This podcast is for learners, educators, and healthcare professionals interested in building leadership skills in a supportive community.

We are your hosts Rahul Anand, Maya Doyle, Peter Longley, Amber Vargas, and Brooklynn Weber.

Together we bring you conversations with emerging and established leaders, deep dives and hacks to help you become the best leader you can be.

Rahul 

What does it take to lead with both head and heart in healthcare? In this episode, Doctor Lisa Coplit, physician, educator, and leader, shares the defining moments of her journey. From rising through academic medicine to embracing vulnerability, cultivating a growth mindset, and being authentic, Lisa shows us how these qualities can be powerful strengths and what it truly means to be a multiplier who leads with purpose and serves with integrity. I'm your host, Rahul, and with me are our co-hosts Amber. 

Amber

Hello. 

Rahul 

And Pete. 

Pete

Hello. 

Rahul 

Our guest today is Doctor Lisa Coplit. Lisa started her medical journey at the Boston University School of Medicine, where she completed her Medical Degree, Internal Medicine Residency, and Chief Residency. In 2011, she brought her passion for medical education to the Netter School of Medicine at Quinnipiac University, joining as one of its founding faculty members. Over the last 15 years, she's played a key role in shaping the next generation of medical professionals at QU Netter, most recently as the senior associate Dean of Faculty affairs, and soon will also serve as the interim Dean. Lisa hosts the Told Me podcast that is a treasure trove of pearls on how to become a better medical educator. But to simply list her titles barely scratches the surface of Lisa's impact. Lisa is one of the most authentic and effective leaders I've ever met in my life. She is a driving force behind the development of hundreds, if not thousands, of faculty and students, helping them grow as teachers and leaders of the highest caliber. Lisa, it's an honor to have you with us. Welcome. 

Lisa 

It's a great honor and pleasure to be here and I thank you for that very generous introduction. 

Rahul 

We're eager to hear about your journey that has shaped you as a leader. So let's start from the beginning. What brought you into medicine and how did your journey evolve from being a medical student to going into academic medicine? 

Lisa 

I have to be honest to say that I thought about being a doctor from the time I was a kid. I had a book and every year in that book you put in it your school photo and probably something, your best friends, I think. And what do you want to be when you grow up? And for a long time I put a doctor or a singer. That's I know there are a couple of other things in between, but since I'm not a very good singer, you know, that's sort of naturally evolved. But I really held on to that from the time that I was a kid. And then, you know, after I went into medicine, it's interesting. And one of the things I like to help students to learn about are what are all the different things that you can do with that degree, it's really limitless, I would say. 

And I never thought or imagined, you know what I'm doing now, certainly when I went into medical school, but I also didn't know what a career as a medical educator looked like. I didn't know what the possibilities were like. And so I would say that probably the most formative experience was my Chief Resident year. We had three institutions within Boston Medical Center and one of them was the VA of Boston, and the year that I became Chief, all the VA's merged such that BU, which used to do all of our we used to do all of our rotations at the Boston VA in Jamaica Plain. All inpatient rotations merged so that they were all going to be at the Jamaica Plain, VA, and that meant that Brigham and Women's Internal Medicine residency program and Beth Israel Internal Medicine residency program were all coming to the same institution. And keep in mind I was a Chief Resident, so I did not fully understand the administrative oversight, but what I was told at the time was that BU would be sort of in charge for the first couple of years. And so the Chief Residents and I happened to be stationed at the VA with my Co chief, we had six Chiefs, 2 at each institution. We were handed the responsibility of the curriculum for the residents. 

Rahul

Wow. 

Lisa 

And we were handed with the responsibility to figure out how to create an educational experience for all of these residents, these three programs that were all completely different and separate programs. So that was my first introduction to curriculum development. It was also the first time that I had to think about instructional methods. I didn't have labels for these things at the time, but that's what I was doing. And of course, we had oversight by fantastic educators who did know what all of those things meant. But we we had a lot of autonomy, and it was so exciting. I was teaching in formal settings every day, and obviously informally every day, and it lit a fire in me and I said I have to be in academic medicine. I have to teach in my career and so that was definitely a pivotal point for me. And then after my chief year, I ended up going to New York to be in the same place as my husband. We had been apart for a few years, so that narrowed down the field to all of New York City and I ended up very very fortunately, being at what was then the Mount Sinai School of Medicine and is now the Icon School of Medicine, and I started my first faculty position there as a clinician educator. And it just so happens that the Dean for medical education, Doctor Larry Smith, who I always will consider one of my mentors, was starting something that he was calling the Institute for Medical Education. He had had a gift from a a generous gift from a grateful patient. And with that, he wanted to start this institute and the role of the Institute would be primarily to provide faculty development for the School. So here I am, a complete novice to this whole world of medical education as a career, and my program director, Doctor David Bottinelli, who's now the Dean at Hofstra. Also, I will always consider just such a pivotal mentor for me and still do. He helped me think through, you know, what could a position there look like, and he spoke with Larry and we all talked together. And how lucky was I to get part of my time protected to teach in that institute as the first faculty member, and I always say that Larry was a believer in getting the rookie and developing them rather than, you know, hiring the really expensive pro. And it's something that I really am obviously grateful for and so he had a lot of relatively junior, very passionate, motivated young medical educators in his team and I felt like I sort of grew up with that group and he developed us. He sent me to the Harvard Macy Program for physician educators. He sent me to the Stanford Faculty Development Program for a month, and I started to gain this knowledge and these skills and then come back and share that in the form of faculty development. And it changed my whole career with that and all of that just lit more and more light bulbs in my brain of what I knew I wanted to do. Never would have, I didn't even know what faculty development was obviously prior to that. 

Rahul 

Wow, what a story. A couple of things really stand out to me. One is that the chief residency position was this unique, both follower and leader, follower for the people above you, and leader for the residence that you're responsible for. And it showed that you're ready to take on more responsibility and then the challenge presented itself and the choices you made and the outcomes and your experience really showed you what is it that you really love doing and you can create unique value with. And the second thing that stands out is Larry, shout out to Larry, we would call him a multiplier as a leader, who's seeing people, not for who they are, but who they can become and then give them the resources and the opportunities to really show what they're capable of. 

Lisa 

Yes. I love that you said that about Larry. I always have said about him, and I've told him this many times, is that he had the ability so often to see in others what they could not see in themselves yet. And I think that's a real gift actually as a leader. 

Rahul 

Yeah, that's fantastic. Shout out. 

Lisa 

The remainder of the story, what happened about five years after I started at Mount Sinai is that Larry went on to start the Medical School at Hofstra, the new school, and to be the Dean. And I was then made the Director of the Institute for Medical Education at that point, and so that was, I would say, my first formal leadership role, even though I think I had several before that unknowingly, that was probably my first formal role. And then in that role, we obviously kept the primary mission of the Institute, which was to provide faculty development, and then we expanded it into a teaching academy. And the purpose there was to really create an institution-wide mechanism to be able to recognize and support our medical educators, whether they be MD, clinician educators, or PhD scientist educators, and that is something that really became a passion for me. I remember the day that one of my colleagues, Susie Rose, this is really what's called that mentorship mosaic, right? Susie Rose is an absolutely a mentor of mine. She was our Dean for Student Affairs and I remember her calling me into her office and telling me that she was leaving and she was going on to UConn to be the Dean for Education and it's it's a bigger title than that, but I'm not remembering what it is. And she said I would love for you to come with me, but I'm just starting and I don't know what I'm gonna need. And I said ohh my goodness, that's just. You know, first of all, I was sad that she was leaving, I was sort of gutted. But I said no, no, no, no, no, I could never leave. I love my job so very much. And she said, well, you know, Bruce Keppen, who was in the job that she was taking over, had just left to start a brand new Medical School at Quinnipiac. And she said, you know, Bruce Keppen is doing this and he's starting a new School and you should look into that. And that might be really fun. And I said, well, it's just too it's too far away. And I love my job. And I just sort of brushed it right aside. And then I walked out of her office and I remembered something that David Bottinelli had said to me as a Chief when I was looking for a job. And he said whenever somebody wants to talk, you always listen. Now, that was not exactly the case, Bruce was not asking me to talk, but that was sort of how it clicked in my head. What it was, was there might be something interesting here. Why wouldn't I just look at it? And so I went back into her office, I think 20 minutes later, and I said sure because she had said I can send him your CV. Sent her my CV. She sent it to him. And Bruce literally emailed me an hour later and said I want to talk to you. 

Rahul 

What a great tip and what a great story there. 

Lisa 

I love to share that learning because it really has been pivotal I would say throughout my career to just remember Dave's words in my mind. 

Rahul 

So so you have us hooked. Tell us what happened then? 

Lisa 

I think I was the 6th hire. But I remember going to see the school and Bruce taking me on a tour himself, and he wanted somebody to come and do faculty development and help with assessment as well. And it all just happened very quickly and it was so exciting. And I will say, coming to Quinnipiac at that moment in time, in that moment in my career was probably the most invigorating period, I would say of my career in total, because starting the school, you know, I signed on to do this job, right. But none of us who signed on in the beginning just did the job we were hired for. It was probably the minority of what we did because what we needed to do was put a medical school together on paper to submit to the LCME. And so we all had to become, I say we all had to become these pluripotent educators and learn everything we could about all the different aspects of a medical school and bring that knowledge to bear to create what we thought would be the best outcome. And then little by little, of course, bringing in people with more expertise across the scope of the school. And then once the school got up and running, we had more people. We brought in more experts, little by little. We all started to then differentiate into, you know, our jobs that we were hired to do. But it was just a tremendous learning curve and incredibly exciting. 

Rahul 

Yeah. What a huge lift and contribution. And you not only did that, you also created a whole podcast series on the founding of the school, which I think everyone starting a medical school should listen to. There's so many pearls in there. 

Amber 

This is Amber. So yes. So we discussed your first formal leadership position, but I'm curious to know a little bit more about if there was a point in your career where you first felt like, OK, now I'm emerging as a leader, when did you start to think of yourself as a leader? 

Lisa 

I don't think there was one moment. I really think that it happened in small increments. I would say the first time I probably felt it tangibly was as a Resident running a team. Although I knew very well that I wasn't in charge of the team, that was the attending. But I knew that I had an important leadership role because the day-to-day was really my responsibility. The learning of the Intern and the students was primarily my responsibility. I spent the most time with them and the responsibility for the patients lives was really I felt that so acutely as a resident, because even though the attending was in charge, tt's really it's usually the residents who can only respond immediately when a patient's in distress and has to make very quick in the moment decisions. So I think that was the first time I really felt that. And then when I was an attending, that was a different jump. That was a whole new level of responsibility. Although the authority, my authority, of course, was my Division Chief and my Department Chair. But it's really as an attending that the buck stops with you in terms of that patient care, in terms of the running of your team and the effective running, in terms of the teaching. So that's yet a different level of responsibility. So it's really this sort of progression of responsibility. And as a very new attending, I remember there was this point where I realized that my position alone, didn't matter who I was, how down to Earth I was, the comfortable learning environment that I was trying to create for my team so that they felt comfortable to bring problems to me. That my position and my title changed the way that others perceive me and how they felt around me and that to some degree there was nothing I could do about that and I had to be comfortable with it. And I remember that very, very acutely. I do think in my faculty development role, I think that the perception of feeling like a leader took a little bit longer than it did in direct patient care. It was probably somewhere around a year before I was appointed into that formal leadership role as the Director of the Institute. 

Amber 

As a medical student who's graduating soon and going to be a resident very soon, thank you for these pearls and words of wisdom. You know, as I get myself mentally prepared to start leading teams myself. 

Lisa 

I am so excited for you, and I often reassure 4th years that, to be honest, the biggest jump you make is not between 4th year and internship, it's really between internship and your PGY2 year because that's when you start leading the team. So you're good. You still have lots and lots of layers above you. So you don't have to worry about that yet, you'll have lots of guidance. 

Amber 

Awesome. Thank you. 

Rahul 

And then it seems that your experience at Mount Sinai was formative in your development as a leader as well. Is there a memorable moment or experience from that phase that comes to mind? 

Lisa 

Obviously there are many, many moments, and yet one that comes to mind is one where I made a mistake. And I think that it was certainly in that early phase of taking on that formal leadership role where I began to really learn about anticipating unintended consequences. I was in a meeting where I had created the committee structure, a brand new structure, I had created the voting rules, and yet in our very first meeting, which really when you think about it was the test run, right. This was all new. I had never put together this type of infrastructure before. There was a moment where I felt very uncomfortable with one of the resulting votes, just one of them. And in retrospect, I would have suggested that we table that vote until we had more information. And the learning point there for me was that it's always better to pause and slow down when you're not sure that something's being done correctly. 

We do this in clinical settings. Surgeons do this, right. You have timeouts when you're doing procedures or surgery, and anybody on the team can call a timeout and double check that everything is being done correctly. So there's no reason that we can't do that in our leadership roles in every other domain, even if it was your decision or you're leading the meeting or the decision made, maybe even more so in those settings, right to be in that learning leader position to have that growth mindset and say, wait a minute, I know this was my idea, but hold on. This isn't doesn't feel right. So that I think was one of many pivotal moments for me. 

Rahul 

I love your example and you've taught me so much about growth mindset in all of these years. Let's just double click on that concept because similarly early on as a leader, I might be really upset with myself or so hard on myself, think of that as a failure and let that set me back. But now, after having learned about growth mindset from you, I would see it very differently. So just talk about growth mindset and how can that be useful to leaders in bouncing back from such challenges. 

Lisa 

I love the opportunity to talk about growth mindset at any time because it's something that was really life changing for me when I learned about it. And I would say I probably learned about it somewhere around maybe eight years ago at a national conference. Of course, the K through 12 community knew about it before we did. But now, in graduate medical education, we are, and in undergraduate and graduate, we are adopting it. Which I'm so glad that we are because it's so important when you think about the stakes that we have in our careers. So a growth mindset is the belief that our abilities and our intelligence can be developed, instead of believing that they are fixed and immovable. So with a growth mindset, you value challenges and you value mistakes as learning experiences so that you can improve for the next go around. And we teach this now to our medical students very explicitly. And yet I think it's very similar to concepts like mental health care where we teach our students that it is a strength to care for yourself physically and mentally. That adopting a growth mindset is healthy and will help you through your career. And yet I still think that we maintain a double standard, that as you go higher and higher in leadership level, that you have less capacity for tolerance for mistakes for yourself, and less capacity for kindness to yourself in terms of well-being. You know that that goes for my learners because my job is to care for them. That goes for my colleagues, because if you're in a leadership position, my job is to be there for them and care for them, and it's so important that we remember that we are human and that we cannot care for others, if we don't care for ourselves. And I think part of that is remembering that growth mindset. 

Rahul 

Totally. If the same thing was happening to a friend, we would be so nice to them and coach them through it and for ourselves, we are just so hard on ourselves. We are hardwired to be so hard on ourselves. Yeah. It takes literally takes someone in the room or someone to coach you through that, to have that growth mindset when adversity is really happening. 

Lisa 

Yes. Which is why I really like that you said that and which is why you have to remember that in any position that you're in, at any level of leadership. And by the way, it gets it gets lonelier and lonelier as you go up. And you know the old saying, right? That it's lonely at the top. And it and it is in fact, and I think that we often feel there's less and less people who we can talk to about our challenges because we, again, we feel that that's our job is to hear other people's challenges, right? That's something that's probably one of the things that I try not to do in my leadership role is to share my challenges with those on my team beyond the ones that really affect them directly that they're a part of, because I want to be more in that, I'm here for you position. But having said that, you have to have colleagues, whether they're at your own institution. Whether they're within the university but maybe not in your school, whether they're not in your institution, you have to have colleagues that you can talk to who can be a sounding board and really help to coach you. 

Rahul 

That's another great tip. So you're telling us about the balance between being vulnerable and genuinely sharing with your team versus oversharing and just weighing them with the things that are on your mind. 

Let's talk a little bit about transitions because you're great at that. So in your transition from being a Clinician Educator at Mount Sinai to now coming to Netter and taking over as the Dean of Faculty Development and then Faculty Affairs tell us how you navigated the transition into a new role. 

Lisa

Often it was gradual. It was a very gradual development and it didn't feel like a massive step up. But there are a couple of transitions that did feel bigger than others, and I would say that each step, you know, brought new challenges and new content. I think one of the things that I learned in some of the bigger transitions of where I was feeling some imposter syndrome, is that it's important to realize and to share with others, to demystify career development that most people, when taking on a new role, are doing work that is new to them. And I love to share that with other people. To say, just remember that, that it's OK that you're taking on this new role. And that a whole bunch of it is new to you, that is expected, right. Otherwise people would only be making lateral moves. We would never move up into a new leadership position. And even if you are making a lateral move, the context is different. So we're always doing new things and then that lends itself. Makes the conditions ripe for some imposter syndrome, so I think it's really important to realize that you're going to have to settle in to the uncomfortable feeling, maybe for some who are more evolved, it's not as uncomfortable, but I think it's an often uncomfortable feeling that you're going to be learning and leading at the same time. And in fact, I think if you're a great leader, you're always learning and leading and you're doing it with transparency. You know, and that's what a learning leader is. I'm happy to share for me, a really pivotal conversation that opened my eyes to this and that was a conversation with one of my best friends. She is an incredibly competent, strong, leader in the business world, so it's a whole different world than us in academia. And I remember when I was taking on a new role and I was doing a lot of new things I'd never done before, and she said hold on a minute, because of course I was saying, “I don't know. Did they make a bad decision? I don't. You know, I don't know what I'm doing in part of this job.” And she said hold on one minute. She said they did not hire you for your content expertise in all that you would be doing. They hired you because you're smart and resourceful and you will be able to figure out the pieces that you don't know and you are motivated, right? So there's also a corollary to I remember when I was hiring somebody and another very wise colleague of mine who is an incredible leader, Michelle Sontay, she's still at Mount Sinai and we were hiring somebody. And that person didn't have any content, expertise relevant to the job, and she said, what I look for, I look for somebody who's smart and motivated because that combination can do anything. So if you put those two pieces together, those two moments together, when my mind really expanded, that for me was very, very pivotal. And I now carry that inside myself and it helps me in all those moments of questioning, I've never done this before. So that's OK, it's going to be fun. That's what makes it fun. I'm going to figure it out and I'll talk to people who do know more about it if I need to. 

Rahul 

I love that example and a couple of things that resonate with me. One is a great tip you said, that when you are transitioning to a new position, you are actually going to need time to transition. I remember when I was taking over as hospital epidemiologist at a healthcare center, one of the biggest pieces of advice that lifted the weight of my shoulders was the exact same thing. That it's going to take you a couple of years before you see everything under your nose and are comfortable, so be prepared to be off balance for a couple of years and that was huge. 

Lisa 

And just to build on that, I'll say that one of the things that Susie Rose told me when I was leaving Mount Sinai and moving to Quinnipiac, is she said, now just prepare yourself because I've been in one place for 10 years, she said, just prepare yourself that it takes a good six months to even feel like you have your feet under you. And it takes a solid year to really feel like you're settling into the job. So I think that completely goes along with what you're saying. And these are all these pearls of wisdom that I got from other people that I love to share, because if we can help other people get there more quickly and with less angst, right, then that just feels so rewarding. 

Rahul 

Yeah. And the second thing you said, I think highlighted the power of not knowing. So come have fun in this transition, ask questions, talk to people smarter than you. And there is a lot of power in not knowing, because then you start to question all the assumptions that somebody else may have been working with. 

Pete 

This is Pete. And the one thing that I'm always curious about is what are you learning about yourself that surprised you, right. When you're going through this journey and transitions and bumping into things with that imposter syndrome and everything, what surprised you in the short term, long term, however you want to answer that. 

Lisa 

One of the things that surprised me over the last, I would say couple of years, and it was when I was serving in the Interim Senior Associate Dean for Education position while I was a simultaneously in my current position as the Senior Dean for Faculty Affairs. And it was not that I loved the both roles, that didn't surprise me at all. One of the reasons I love faculty development is because you get to do everything. And I enjoy so much and get so much satisfaction within the entire realm of medical education, so that did not surprise me. Really interested in curriculum, assessment, teaching, instructional methods, all of it. What surprised me was how much I loved having this broad 30,000 foot view across all of it at the same time. That surprised me and that I was able to contribute and make impactful decisions. And I think more impactful decisions because I had this perspective in each of the other domains that I didn't have before. So understanding all that's going on with the faculty while I am functioning in the education role was incredibly useful, and vice versa. And I think that it brought to light for me, and made it explicit for me, that I enjoy being in a leadership position for that reason. I don't think I'd ever realized that I enjoy being in a leadership position. And that then got me thinking more about “the why” and it actually tapped back into the things that have brought me fulfillment in my career from the beginning, which is being able to make a direct positive impact on other people's lives for the better. And that is why I became a doctor. And that is what I sometimes miss very much in seeing patients. And so it it occurred to me that being in this leadership position and being able to make impactful decisions for the benefit of others and this big cascade of others. So I might be making a decision that's in the benefit of the faculty, but it has a downstream benefit for the students, which has a downstream benefit for their patients, right. My direct decision might not be making this direct benefit, but along the way that is the long term downstream effect, feels impactful and meaningful. When my daughter was very young and I had to leave and go to work, and those painful moments of “Mommy, why do you have to go?” I used to tell her there are two reasons why we have to work, one is so that we can make enough money to put food on the table and have this home. And hopefully be able to go to new places and experience new things. And the other is that we need to do something in life that does good in the world. And so I have to go off and do something good for the world. So I feel like I've been able to find ways throughout my career to do that and all different roles. 

Pete 

Wow. 

Rahul 

Wow, and yes, you have. What a great concept this is for emerging leaders. So a lot of our listeners, students, trainees, early career professionals, they are well versed in taking care of individuals and even teams, but the systems part is quite challenging for them. You, on the other hand, seem to have loved it and thrived in it. What's your secret? 

Lisa 

So I'll answer that from the perspective of what I enjoy about it. And I think part of what I enjoy about it is that it requires you to learn more and more and more. And that is something that I love when I think about someday, what am I going to do when I retire? One of the things I always think that I'm definitely going to do is I have to be somewhere near higher education because I'll probably go to my local university and audit a bunch of classes of things that I've always wanted to learn about. So I think to be continually learning, you know, it allows you to do that when you move into different roles and do different things. When I think about systems and the complexity can sometimes become so overwhelming of how do you foster the effective, efficient functioning of a very complex system over which you only have control over some small bit, right. So obviously there are people with much more knowledge than me, who spent their careers studying this, so I will just take one little piece that I have found to be helpful in being effective within, you know, in being a cog in that wheel. And that is communication. So the different pieces, centers, departments, categories, you know of a system and in our case, let's say our medical school, all those different pieces, they need to have a whole bunch of experts who are making them run effectively. So they do function to some degree autonomously, but the system cannot function effectively if there's not very deliberate communication systems or a communication system put into place to make sure that those people, those individuals, are talking to each other and know what the others are doing. So that's just my own personal, I would say, learning point that I have taken from the running of effective systems. But of course there are many and it is a whole science in and of itself. 

Rahul 

So what I'm hearing from you is one of the big things that helps is communication up, down and across the system and it helps you to understand and share what everyone's doing and perhaps listen and learn about new things from others as well. 

Lisa 

That's exactly right. And particularly, I think at decision making moments, remembering to just stop for a second, because we're all so busy and stop for a second. And think about who are the other people, and therefore, what are the other pieces, centers, departments, that I need to think about before I make that decision. 

Rahul 

Yeah, this is another great tip you've given me in the past. Which is in leading, think about key moments when they're happening and just slow yourself down and give yourself whatever you need to succeed in those moments. So here you are, as an established leader. Now, what are some of the key principles or practices that you live by that guide you now as a leader? 

Lisa 

I have a couple that I would say guide, and and by the way, these are just little pearls. I have sort of many principles I think that guide my everyday actions but just little pearls that I come back to often. One is you never go to your boss with a complaint or concern without always having ideas for strategies and solutions to address it. And I think about that often, right, because there's always challenges that come up and sometimes I can come up with solutions on my own. And sometimes I'm sort of stuck, right. And I need to go to my boss, who is the Dean. And so before I do that, I always stop and think about what are possible, I might not know what the solution or strategy is, but what are possible solutions to at least get that conversation going? And by the way, that is something I learned from Dave Bottinelli. I will attribute everything when I can. The other one, of one of the other ones, is that when I'm struggling to make a decision, I've learned that it's important to stop and make sure that I have enough data to make that decision. I found a really interesting corollary because I do the training for new PBL facilitators and one of the things that I learned when I was learning to facilitate PBL, and now that I share as a trainer of PBL facilitators. Is that you know, for those who don't know, Problem Based Learning is self-directed learning for students and it's used in all different industries, but we use it in our own medical school, in our Foundations of Medicine course to facilitate the learning of foundational sciences through patient cases. And the students take on the case as their own patient. And they come up with their own learning objectives and learning issues. And one of the things that I pass on to the facilitators is if the students are going around and around and around and just debating what do we do next or what is this diagnosis? That often is a clue that they just don't have enough information and they need to stop and put that on the board as a learning issue. So I took that as from my PBL learning and translated that into my decision making and different leadership roles that when I'm just circling and circling and circling a problem and I cannot come to something satisfying or that I think is the right way to approach it, that often it's because I need to stop and get more information. 

Pete 

Have a question. In being successful at your job or in your career, how much impact does a good environment help versus a toxic environment? 

Lisa 

Ah yes, because right environment can mean a lot of things. Well, we know from literature that a safe environment where we feel that we can be wrong, where we feel that we can express our opinions. We know that those environments promote retention. People want to work in those environments. And those are also environments that promote innovation. That's where you know, new ideas are welcomed. So the word pivotal comes to mind. I think it can make or break and the toxic environment, I think that's really interesting. It's something that I. Again, there are people who spend their careers studying each of these concepts that we're talking about. And I have not done an entire study right of what we would call a toxic work environment. But when I think toxic, one of the things that I think of is the book Multipliers. That was a book that to me was very instructive. And I think personally for myself, to me, books that are where you're learning something from it you know, a nonfiction book that's out there to teach us something, I think of that almost like a lecture. I leave the book and I take away, maybe at most sort of three pearls that I remember in a very, very enduring way. And one of the things that I remember very distinctly from that book is that the author made the point that people don't leave jobs, they leave bosses. And the bosses that they leave are the ones who are diminishers. And the bosses that people want to work for are the ones who are multipliers. And what is a multiplier? It's somebody who recognizes the value in the people around them. And lifts them up, develops them, gives them credit for the work that they do and helps them to do that work even better. Whereas obviously a diminisher is somebody who is taking credit for their team's work and trying to hold others down so that they can rise. And so I think that's one definition of a toxic work environment there can be. There's all sorts of reasons why it could be, but that's sort of one thing that comes to mind. So I do think that that environment being safe versus toxic, so to speak, I think is really pivotal. 

Rahul 

Every time I have a leadership conversation with you, Lisa, the concept of energy comes in. And I'm listening to you, and again, we've talked about managing your own energy in the past. But now from your answer about the environment, it's clear the importance of leaders and people around you and their impact on our energies. There are some who multiply the energy, and channel that towards the common goal. And then there are some who will completely drain your energy and you know there's a reason there's two staircases in every building, so that still really stands out to me. I want to ask you, in follow-up to Pete, what do you do to surround yourself with really good, smart people? 

Lisa 

I often don't have choice, right, of who might be surrounding me. When I do have choice in who I'm surrounded by, I would say that some of the most important characteristics are that they are people who really enjoy what they do. They feel passionate about it, because having that joy and passion is very motivating and it breeds a positive environment. And so it's the positivity. It is the shared love of what we're doing that to me makes it easy to come in every day and do good work. 

Amber 

Doctor Coplit, I think what you said was absolutely amazing and definitely resonated with me. To add to it, I think that the energy that we put out is very important, right? Like I think that if you come to a situation, if you come to a team with a positive outlook with a positive energy, then that's also what we attract, right? Like if you're nice to people, then they'll be nice to you. But on a greater level, you know, the energy that we put out is what we get back. So I just thought it was, that's what what you were saying reminded me of. 

Lisa 

And actually, I really love that you said that explicitly. Because I think that was implicit in what I was saying and I sort of it wasn't in the front of my mind to say that explicitly, but it's very, very true. And again, I'm happy to share something I've learned somewhere else that I've integrated and I think about often. I don't remember where I learned this. I can't remember if it was in a lecture. If it was on a podcast, I just don't remember. But it was somebody who was in a leadership position talking about how as they were stepping into a leadership position, what they learned from their boss. And what they learned was that they realized they would be running from one meeting to the next because they were so busy and they would get to that next meeting, and they're sometimes literally huffing and puffing. And there's this, like, exasperated, “Oh my God, I have so much to do.” You know, and this person said to their boss, why do you always just look so calm and together and this person's boss said, I actually think about that because you have to think about how do you want others to see you. So if somebody's coming to see you with that dynamic, right, that you're in that leadership position, did they want to hear you complain about the fact that you just had back-to-back meetings all morning and that you're tired? No. They want you to be there and ready to receive them and to be exuding that positive energy. Right, so sometimes we need to literally take a breath. Remember that this isn't the place for that, and that you're there and you need to be there for other people and that you have to put forth the positive energy if you want to get it back. So I love that you made that explicit. 

Rahul 

Wow, Lisa, thank you so much for such a great conversation and sharing your stories and insights on leadership. It's been such a joy and privilege. I've taken a lot from this conversation. So one of the things I am taking away is how step by step as we go on the journey of leadership, the power of having an open mind, being vulnerable and curious, communicating and asking questions and building relationships. And having an outlook, not just on one's individual sphere of work, but the importance of understanding the whole system, I think that's really the take away for me. What do you feel, Pete and Amber? 

Pete 

Doctor Coplit, thank you. The main take away that's resonating in me right now is authentic leadership at a high level is really the at the bare bones of it is being vulnerable. To be your real true self, but confidently, of course, to lead others in a way that you know raises all boats helps us all. So thank you. 

Lisa 

Thank you. I very much agree with that. I appreciate the opportunity to have these moments where we can be vulnerable with each other because I think that's when we connect. Most of these vulnerabilities, we all feel them right, so it allows us to connect. It allows us to form better relationships, whether it's at home or whether it's at work. And in these moments where we're hoping to help others to learn and to gain what took us maybe a very long time to help them get to more quickly, I think it's required. And I also think that being a great leader is also about again sitting with that sometimes discomfort of vulnerability, right, you then have to persevere through it. And find the answers and what you need and seek help where you need it. But that knowing it's OK and that it's inevitable that there will be moments of vulnerability. 

Pete 

Yeah. And I just see it as a dynamic of fighting society norms in the United States, where we're at, so that's the, I think the rub that I see. 

Rahul 

Another great leadership pearl from Lisa, being vulnerable is what builds trust in relationships and leaders often have to go first to make it safe for others. And then when others are vulnerable, then to acknowledge and honor that. So thank you for that pearl. Lisa, before we end, what is the one greatest lesson on leadership that you've learned that you want to share with our listeners? 

Lisa 

I truly do have one lesson that I hope to impart to anybody who would like to listen. And that is that success is happiness. Period. That is what I share with our students, particularly pre Match Day, when the anxiety level is really high. And it sounds so simple, but figuring out what makes you happy in life. Boy, we all know that's not such an easy task, right? But I do think it's really important to separate out on your leadership journey, take moments to really be honest with yourself. And think about do I want to go to this place or take on this new job? What are my motivations for doing it and do I think it will make me happy? One of the things particularly I find in medicine, one of the driving forces for so many of us in medicine, is from a young age you have a lot of folks who are very driven and often feel like the hardest road or the highest level is it's only if you take the hardest road or only if you get to the very very top level, right, have you been successful. I have to go to the most prestigious residency program. Right. And and on and on from there. And yet we all know that's not true, right? If you can stop at different moments in your life, there might be times that are very hard and very challenging that you need to go through because you believe on the other side of that, you're going to be successful. I think residency is a great example of that. That great, but the goal should be happiness. We have a luxury in medicine that we get to make the choice of how we'd like to utilize our careers in this field that is fairly stable. Most of us, we can feel fairly comfortable that we're going to be able to put food on the table and therefore we can choose our path that we feel joy from and can wake up and be happy to go to every morning and that is an incredible luxury in life, right to have job security for the most part. And to be able to get up and do something that you love every day and so really trying to separate out all the different competing factors and layers that we've put on ourselves and expectations to figure out what we really want to do that brings us joy is really important. 

Rahul 

Wow. What a great message to end our show. It tells us how by knowing what makes you happy, you've been able to channelize that to being so authentic and to saying hell yes to things that matter to you and make you happy and dive into them with passion and saying no thank you to the things that do not make you happy. 

Lisa 

Mhm. 

Rahul 

It really goes to show what makes you the leader you are. 

Lisa 

Thank you. 

Rahul 

Alright, that was a great show and listeners, we'd love to hear from all of you. So let's keep the conversation going. Thanks for tuning in. And until next time, take care and keep learning and leading. 

Brooke

Thank you for listening to our show. Learning to Lead is a production of the Quinnipiac University podcast studio, in partnership with the Schools of Medicine, Nursing and Health Sciences. 

Creators of this show are Rahul Anand, Maya Doyle, Peter Longley, Amber Vargas and Brooklynn Weber.

The student producer is Brooklynn Weber, and the executive producer is David DesRoches.

Connect with us on social media @LearningToLeadPod or email us at LearningToLeadPod@quinnipiac.edu.

Episode 3: Leadership Hack — Calm Listening in Moments of Conflict (feat. Lisa Coplit, MD)

Rahul 

Welcome to Learning to Lead, a podcast about leadership, teamwork, and reimagining healthcare. This podcast is for learners, educators, and healthcare professionals interested in building leadership skills in a supportive community.

We are your hosts Rahul Anand, Maya Doyle, Peter Longley, Amber Vargas, and Brooklynn Weber.

Together we bring you conversations with emerging and established leaders, deep dives and hacks to help you become the best leader you can be.

Rahul

So what is one of your favorite tools or hacks to be a better leader that our listeners can benefit from?

Lisa

A really, really useful tool is to listen. And I know that sounds trite, but I'm going to add to that, particularly in a moment of conflict or when the person sitting across from you is feeling emotional and upset in those moments when your amygdala is screaming, right? That you have to act right away, my tip and my tool is to listen and be calm, not to mirror the emotion, but to be calm.

And I do believe that that calmness allows that person to feel safe. The listening allows them to feel heard and then let them know that they've been heard. Repeat a piece of what you've heard or what you understand you have heard. And if your amygdala is screaming and it's something that is upsetting you in return, to try to take that deep breath and calm that reaction and let the other person know they have been heard, but that you need time to think and return to that conversation and that you really want to put your mind to it.

Rahul 

Wow what a great tip. So where does that calmness come from? Because we are all great listeners until our feathers are ruffled. So were you always like that or some insight helped you develop that calm?

Lisa 

I think there was always a piece of me that was like that, but not not to the degree it is now. I really do feel like it has been experience and learning from that experience over time and being in a lot of those situations. Because as a leader, you inevitably, and ah and I mean, it started as a resident. I would say it started there. You know, having my intern come at me hysterical that another intern was trying to transfer three patients over that wasn't appropriate. I mean, starting from there and going on and and on that you're in more and more of these situations where you are the problem solver and therefore people are coming to you with problems that often are accompanied by emotion and upset and learning of what helps in those situations and what doesn't and meeting the upset, and the emotions, I've not found that to be helpful in the short term or the long term But it does require a recognition of your own emotion and an acceptance of your own emotions, that it's okay, again, we're human and I think it's that growing that emotional intelligence piece. And I've worked on that actively throughout my own leadership development in courses and just learning about what emotional intelligence is and how do you grow that knowledge of self, and then in reflecting on experiences and discussing with colleagues.

Rahul

That's huge. I think in my own journey, I've experienced going from listening to interrupt with my response or listening to win or listening to fix, to being able to just listen and understand what's on the surface and what's beneath it. And another thing that's helped is to just tell myself that completely listening to someone else does not mean I agree with them. It just means I've fully listened to them.

Lisa 

I also want to reflect back to you, Rahul, that you have been instrumental in helping me to grow that skill and behavior. Because those words that you've said, I've heard you say before, and we've had some conversations around this before, particularly as you and I were creating those sessions on psychological safety, I learned through that. You know as a faculty developer, every time I develop a new session around a new time, I’m learning. So I actually integrated a lot of those words that you said, I remember them often in those moments.

And by the way, I don't claim to have handled these moments or that I will handle these moments in the future perfectly. You know, I've definitely had my moments of, as Lyuba Konopasek taught us, amygdala hijack. So we all do. But, you know, that's sort of in the best of moments.

Rahul 

Yeah, growth mindset. We have a shared hack then.

Lisa 

That's right. Growth mindset.

Brooke

Thank you for listening to our show. Learning to Lead is a production of the Quinnipiac University podcast studio, in partnership with the Schools of Medicine, Nursing and Health Sciences. 

Creators of this show are Rahul Anand, Maya Doyle, Peter Longley, Amber Vargas and Brooklynn Weber.

The student producer is Brooklynn Weber, and the executive producer is David DesRoches.

Connect with us on social media @LearningToLeadPod or email us at LearningToLeadPod@quinnipiac.edu.

Episode 2: Roses with Renee Transcript

Rahul  

Welcome to Learning to Lead, a podcast about leadership, teamwork, and reimagining healthcare. This podcast is for learners, educators, and healthcare professionals interested in building leadership skills in a supportive community.

We are your hosts Rahul Anand, Maya Doyle, Peter Longley, Amber Vargas, and Brooklynn Weber. 

Together we bring you conversations with emerging and established leaders, deep dives and hacks to help you become the best leader you can be. 

Brooke 

In this episode, we explore a leadership hack that promotes self-reflection and sharing, and also helps teams and individuals connect. Our guest Renee Scott is one of the first alumni from our interprofessional relationship-centered leadership workshop. She recently graduated with her Masters in Social Work, and is starting her career working with veterans.  

Maya  

Hi everyone, welcome to Learning to Lead in Healthcare. This morning, we're going to dive a little bit deeper into an idea we talked about a little bit in our first episode, which is the Rose, Bud, and Thorn exercise that we've all started using within our curriculum and in other places in the teams that we work with. Just to kind of talk a little bit more about what that is and then give you maybe another example of how it can be useful as a leadership hack in getting our teams and ourselves comfortable and talking and sharing with each other. So Rose, Bud, and Thorn came to us from Rahul's experience and reading of a Harvard Macy blog post around this exercise. And it's been something we've started doing with our students in our relationship-centered leadership curriculum and now I think probably all of us have used it in other settings as well. I've taken to using it at the start of meetings, sometimes with my social work team, just to get people kind of comfortable and sharing. I've used it in classes too, so it's just this idea of being able to share, being able to be vulnerable, and being able to listen to what's going on for other folks. And I say, Rose, Bud, and Thorn, like that makes sense to everybody of what that means, but we should probably talk about what it means in relationship to the exercise.   

So you can picture rose, bud, thorns on the stems, and the idea is that if you're going to talk about a rose, you're going to talk about something that's positive, that's currently flowering, and hopefully positive in your life. A bud is something that is growing, developing, you're trying, you're hoping for, you're looking forward to. And then thorn being a challenge that you're going through where you want to share that to get some support, or maybe just to get some validation that yes, that really is difficult and prickly, is a struggle. We've used this exercise both really broadly as just in general. What's going on in your lives? Or occasionally we've… I feel like I've used it around specific topics like let's talk about Rose, Bud, and Thorn around a specific project that we're working on. So I am really delighted to introduce our relationship-centered leadership alumnus from our first cohort of students, Renee Scott, who is here with us this week, who I roped in a couple of days ago and who obligingly said yes, which is a great leadership hack right there, right, to say YES when you don't really want to!  

Rahul  

Welcome, Renee.  

Renee  

Thank you. Thank you.  

Maya  

So, Renee, do you want to tell us a little bit about your journey since you were in our leadership cohort and then we can maybe dive into sharing some Rose, Bud, and Thorns.  

Renee  

OK, so my journey since being a part of that cohort, I've definitely grown. I don't know. It was a really great experience. I learned to be more flexible with working with individuals from other professions. I definitely became aware that we approach caring for a patient differently. I felt like when the group that I was a part of, we did have a really, and this is the Rose, we communicated very well. We respected boundaries and really asked clarifying questions when it came to their input and understanding of the situation and whatever challenge it was that we had to discuss. The bud part of my experience. It is now, like we were in the context of the classroom and had mock exercises, but transitioning into the professional world as an established social worker, I feel like I'm ahead of the game, in a sense. I didn't get that same kind of experience in my undergrad studies.  

So taking the time and stepping out and being a part of the program really puts me in the forefront to be able to bring that flexibility to the table when working with an interdisciplinary team. The thorn, I wouldn't necessarily say there was a thorn experience, but overall, I think transitioning out of school is somewhat nerve-wracking. I'm going out now, you know, and taking everything that I learned with me.  

Pete  

Yeah, those transitions could be a little scary and exciting all at the same time. You're like, I'm excited to get moving, but then I'm. What am I getting into?  

Renee  

Challenging, yeah. Right. And that's where I am, yeah.  

Maya  

Well, it's kind of Rose, Bud, and Thorn all at the same time. Yeah, yeah, yeah.  

Rahul  

Rose, Bud, and Thorn in one, yes.  

Maya  

Now it makes sense that like that same topic, that same thing, it has all of those aspects, but I think making us tease it apart is what makes that such a great exercise, right? Because you actually have to slow down and go like, all right, what part is really wonderful and exciting and then, OK, what part is creating the tension and stress?  

Renee  

Right.  

Pete  

Right.  

Amber  

No, I really like that. And just to add on to what you said about the exercise helping us tease apart which one is what. What is in our mind that goes into which of these categories? Right at the same time it's a really nice exercise for the listener too, because they're learning so much about you in terms of what you value as your roles, what you're working on, like what's meaningful to you as your bud. And then you're going like, what's what's what can you support with, you know, as a listener? That's what I'm thinking, you know, like I just learned so much through your Rose, Bud, and Thorn, so thank you for sharing.  

Renee  

You're welcome. I think it's important to share our experiences transparently. Like you said, it definitely can help the individual who's listening and let them know that you know what I'm feeling and what I'm thinking is not out of the ordinary and normalizes that. I've been here for 2 1/2 years and yes, I'm a graduate student, but I still have my own fears and doubts about certain things.  

Amber  

Yeah, it's a nice way to, like, share what you're feeling exactly.  

Renee 

Yeah.  

Maya  

I think the other thing. You know you two are talking about the transition towards, you know completing your programs and moving on to the next phase of your professional careers. And I think for Pete and Rahul and I, you know, established in our professional lives, but there are still always transitions and changes, right? So we're still having also that same what’s the Rose, Bud, and Thorn about the next the next step? The next phase, and ywhat that role change is like and taking different places maybe even in teams that we've been part of for a long time. But hey, our role is going to be different is an interesting one to kind of contemplate through that process, right. And it's always like the anxiety and the excitement and then the all right, what am I actually doing? What's actually happening? What's blooming so it's a really helpful tool.  

Renee  

That's good. It is.  

Pete  

And then something you said, Amber, about being able to share. I think it's as long as it's in safe space. Because I think when (I'll speak for myself) when I was younger, I was wide open. But people will take advantage of that. So being vulnerable again, I guess being secure in yourself and what you want to put out there, is also a big step in connecting with people.  

So, let's see. Rose, Bud, and Thorn for me. I actually got an e-mail from a student, I think yesterday or the day before, where it was from my health policy class. And I actually have them take current policy that's being brought up and put their own version out there. And then send it to the congressman or congresswoman just to provide feedback, just to have them engage in policy. And she actually wrote back, and she's going down to DC. I think it was this week or next week, to support the same bill that she wrote about, to make changes to. So I was like. Oh wow, that was a win. You hope that's always going to happen when you're teaching, but sometimes you never hear, I guess, or get feedback on it.  

Maya  

You just turned my thorn from yesterday into a bud and into a rose in three seconds because yesterday I was up to here with advising, and the students were great. I was just like one after the other after the other. I was up to here and I had one student that I was trying to find courses for the summer. They can take non-clinical classes including nursing, and I saw oh, Peter Longley, that's that's, I know that's a great class. I'm going to suggest you take that class. And so literally, I just told the student to register for that class and you just told this wonderful story of this outcome, which now I can go back and sell to social work students, look what you can do.  

Pete  

Aye. That's it. And that's the course I'm going to be putting on Canvas this summer, so she'll be a great test subject.  

Maya  

Excellent. There you go. And take the course. See, you never. This is the great thing about Rose, Bud, and Thorn, and I think some of the other exercises that we use too, like people make connections across pieces that like I wouldn't have known that until right we start sharing and people find pieces to connect even across.  

Renee  

Right.  

Maya  

Like where we think there's, oh, professional differences. As you were talking about, Renee. But then, oh, wait, here's this piece of common ground now we've established that we can have a different conversation. So again, a useful piece of what makes that work. Rahul, do you want to share a Rose, Bud, and Thorn?  

Rahul  

Yeah, I'll share a Rose, Bud, and Thorn and maybe I'll share the story of Rose, Bud, and Thorn if you want.  

Maya  

Yes, please do.  

Rahul  

OK so my Rose in this moment is just being here with all of you. In the past we've talked about how I was really hoping that you're going to be interested in doing leadership, and we've been doing, we've been exploring leadership together for the past few years. The Rose for me in this moment is just being open and learning from all of you because it's a wonderful experience to just get to learn your perspectives and what you're sharing. I would never have been able to learn this on my own, so it's a very rich moment. I love learning and so it's a Rose for me. Bud and Thorn? So for me, a thorn is transitioning out of my current clinical role. And it's a thorn because there's always uncertainty about what lies ahead. And will it be better than the past one? How will it be? What will it look like? And so it's a bud and thorn mixed in one, some days it's a bud and there's exploring new possibilities. And some days it's a thorn worrying about what happens ahead. So that's my Rose, Bud, and Thorn in one. Hopefully it's going to be a Rose, Bud, and Thorn in one soon and then Rose.  

Maya  

I feel I have a similar story with things starting to change and shift in my role down the road. And it's exciting. So there's a rose and I think doing this activity and thinking about leadership and because I'm talking about leadership all the time, my department has started to listen and is like sort of nudging me along that path, which in many ways I've avoided. I've always been like, I think we talked about this, I'm the boots on the ground, like, get stuff done. Maybe work in the background to get things done but not be the forward-facing leader in any way. So that's starting to move forward and I'm getting some opportunities. That's exciting. It also means leaving maybe some other pieces behind or to the side for a little while. So like that's a shift, of new buds.  

Rahul  

Yeah, new buds. And you gotta you gotta prune the plant then, for new buds to come. Oh, a new one.  

Maya 

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's a great, yeah, that's excellent.  

Rahul  

So my experience with Rose, Bud, and Thorn, this was coming out of COVID where I am, I'm seeing I'm running courses and I'm seeing how disconnected everyone is and really looking for connection. And seeing that the value of education and what we do is not really in the content by itself, but it's really how we make the content come alive and we build this space and community for people to connect and support each other. So being really curious about the social learning aspect, I saw this blog post on Harvard-Macy Institute’s blog about someone using Rose, Bud, and Thorn in their classroom, and so I try. I start to try it out with my leadership course students. This was the first in-person course we ran after 2020, and we tested it out, and it starts with me sharing my Rose, Bud, and Thorn to give them an example of what it looks like. And then another student shares and goes a little bit more into sharing, a bit more vulnerable. And then the next one dives in and shares something even deeper, and suddenly the flavor of this room changes. There's some safety in that space. There's some risk taking, and so we go around this room. And it's a very different level of connection beyond the initial rituals. “Hi. Hello. How are you doing?” And people are seeing each other as real now, because they're not just sharing their highs, but they're sharing things they're scared about or things that are bothering them. So we come back the next week and the students ask me, can we start with that again? Then the interpersonal aspect kicks in because there's connections starting to be built. There's some trust with others who are listening to you when you're vulnerable and actually supporting that by not sharing that outside the room and maybe supporting you inside and outside the room like I've got your back even when we're outside this room. And in this whole course or community of students, then out of the many stories that are being shared, a bond and a community starts to build that just strengthens every time we meet and we do this together. So one of my roses with the Rose, Bud, and Thorn has been when I run into a student alumni in the cafeteria or somewhere and the first thing they'll ask me is do you want to share Rose, Bud, and Thorns. And immediately we're connected at a very different level than we would otherwise.  

Pete  

Yeah, that's nice. Well, they took that lesson away, right.  

Rahul  

And the lesson of growth mindset, I should say, because as you've said, the, you know, the buds, they emerge from the thorns, sometimes the buds become roses. Sometimes it's a rose, bud, and torn in one. And so there is a lesson of growth mindset that what is a thorn today, might become a bud or a rose down the line. 

Pete  

Great.  

Maya  

I think it's also, the way you describe it Rahul, it's also developing a ritual or a sort of tradition of doing that. Which then becomes part of like the culture of the classroom or the culture of a team, right? So thinking about how we use something like this, not just in our classroom, but right, how do we translate it? And we all take it out into, you know, the different teams that we work with. And like, I think I've just now already like internalized it enough that I just kind of throw it out there as a as a question, or someone will be telling a story and I'll be like, oh, that sounds like that's really budding for you and it just becomes a vocabulary that I guess ties back to the that idea of a growth mindset that we're always learning, that we're always kind of going through cycles of things are blooming. Maybe things are wilting.  

Renee  

I like that idea to use it in the conversation or feedback that you are giving to the other person, like you know. Ohh it looks like you got some roses going on right now, you know or however you want to frame it. Yeah, I think taking that concept and using it to generalize it into other parts of, other areas in our lives. And be able to plant those seeds for those to develop, you know that whole Rose, Bud and Thorn concept with other people. I think it's great. I feel like I've been experiencing that though with the social work department. It just hasn't been framed as Rose, Bud and Thorn, you know. It definitely creates community and it creates a safe space to be transparent and vulnerable to discuss your life experiences, but then also offers the space to be able to be guided to kind of like take a different perspective on what you think you may be experiencing. And then as you said, your thorns can turn into a bud, that turns into a rose.  

Rahul  

I'm curious what it looks like from a student or training perspective, either just within the same profession or across professions when this exercise plays out.  

Amber  

I mean, I've made it a point to always do some kind of check-in with my teams before we dive into whatever work we have to do and most frequently it is this Rose, Bud and Thorn exercise. But I think it's really important to have, like this check-in period because it's an outlet I think for students to speak to their peers or whoever might be in this space, to voice whatever is going on on their side of things. And also a chance to get to know everyone who's in the room. Right. Like teams work better when you know who you're working with. So I think it's such a vital, vital thing to have an exercise. And I mean Rose, Bud, and Thorn is an excellent exercise, but some kind of like thing that's getting people together and ready to work.  

Renee 

Mhm, collaborate.  

Amber  

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.  

Pete  

And I think it helped break down some of the mental models like you might say, “Oh my God, Rahul's a doctor. I'm sure everything's perfect in his life.” And when he shares, “Hey, I'm struggling here, here and here.” All of a sudden it kind of normalizes that, oh, he’s human.   

Renee  

Yes. Mhm. He's human too. Right. And he still shows up.  

Amber  

Yes, exactly.  

Pete  

Right. But it's having the courage to not lean on the hierarchy. And be like, you know, I'm just a person, and this is what I'm struggling with. This is what's blooming in my life right now and allowing others to see that, but also join in. And I think that's where everyone starts to build that community.  

Rahul  

Wow, well said. So it just connects us as humans rather than the hierarchies, titles, that we're all hiding behind.  

Pete  

Right, your roles, all that.  

Renee  

Right.  

Maya  

I think also, you know, Rose, Bud and Thorn, sort of, you know, in some ways you're talking about positives, and you're talking about negatives, and you're talking about the in-betweens, and the blooms, right. But it means that you don't get stuck on either side. It's not, “Oh, I'm bragging about all the wonderful things that are happening.” And it's not that I'm just venting and complaining about the challenges, right? It sort of forces you to structure and almost kind of pulls in almost the gratitude piece of like there are positive things happening. It's a maybe, and probably, an outgrowth of work and tending. It's not oh, it's just magically happened. I just got lucky, but ohh no, I've been helping something develop or working to build something along the way. Because I think you can kind of go in either direction, right? It can just become, you know, in a team setting, everyone's complaining, everything's difficult. And not also having weight, but there's some positive thing that happens, you know. So we did something great for one particular patient and our team can come together around that even if we're having a bad week with other issues.  

Amber  

Yeah. It also allows a time for those issues to be brought up too. Like you may not have otherwise known that someone on your team is struggling with something if they didn't bring up their thorn during that meeting. Now you know how you can handle that moving forward or how you'll support that person, or everyone who and and their particular thorn.  

Rahul  

Yeah, I'm also looking at it from habit design or a reflection perspective. And how would it look like if I just kept repeating the same thorn week after week after week. So it is prompting some agency, some call to action, if the same things are showing up again and again.  

Renee  

I feel like it's a, the word that came to me was adaptability, right? And if you're reflecting on if you're looking at something week to week and it's a thorn, thorn, thorn. It's just how adaptable, how flexible am I being? Thinking of the growth mindset, in my thinking and how am I contributing to the team that I'm a part of, right. You have to be able to be adaptable, things change as we all know, in healthcare patients could be good one day and then the next and you need to be able to adjust and to change with the changes. And if you have a coworker, a superior, whoever, and they're not showing up as their best selves for that moment as they did the week prior, I need to be able to adapt, and then to maybe even reflect on why you're showing up in this, you know in this way that you that's not what I'm used to experiencing you in that you know and how am I responding to the way you're showing up.  

Pete  

Right.  

Maya  

So I just want to thank everyone for sharing their Rose, Bud and Thorn experience and their actual Rose, Buds and Thorns. I feel like the whole, for those of you who aren't in the room with us at the moment, the whole temperature of the room changed. And Renee, who got voluntold to do this like, 3 days ago, totally relaxed and had so much to say.  

Renee  

I did. 

Rahul  

She's blooming. She's blooming.  

Maya 

Right. So we like, so you see it, we've got to, we've got to see it in action. So thank you for everyone in participating with us today.  

Renee  

Yeah.  

Brooke 

Thank you for listening to our show. Learning to Lead is a production of the Quinnipiac University podcast studio, in partnership with the Schools of Medicine, Nursing and Health Sciences.  

Creators of this show are Rahul Anand, Maya Doyle, Peter Longley, Amber Vargas and Brooklynn Weber. 

 The student producer is Brooklynn Weber, and the executive producer is David DesRoches. 

Connect with us on social media @LearningToLeadPod or email us at LearningToLeadPod@quinnipiac.edu. 

Episode 1: This is US! Part 2 Transcript

Rahul 

Welcome to Learning to Lead, a podcast about leadership, teamwork, and reimagining healthcare. This podcast is for learners, educators, and healthcare professionals interested in building leadership skills in a supportive community.

We are your hosts Rahul Anand, Maya Doyle, Peter Longley, Amber Vargas, and Brooklynn Weber.

Together we bring you conversations with emerging and established leaders, deep dives and hacks to help you become the best leader you can be.

Brooke

Welcome back to the second part of our first episode. In this part of the episode, we will discuss our leadership failures and how our leadership journeys have changed us. Then we will introduce the Rose-Bud-Thorn concept, and finally we will end with our key take-aways from this episode. 

Pete 

So Rahul, what about a leadership example where things didn't go the way you would hope? 

Rahul 

Oh, I have so many. That's why I got interested in learning about leadership, because it wasn't working so well for me. 

So I'm thinking of a time before Quinnipiac, and at that point I was 10 years out of residency, almost 20 years out of stepping into medical school for the first day. And I was working at a Community Hospital as the lead infection prevention person, hospital epidemiologist, infectious disease physician. And I had already been a certified physician executive at that time, so I should be like flying with leadership and deploying it to make great waves. 

But instead of this being like a wonderful experience at the peak of my career, it was a situation where I was just working day and night. Every 3rd week of call beepers beeping at night, waking up my family, working every 3rd weekend, you know, dropping off my son. The first to be dropped off, the last to be picked up, beyond the pick up time, was basically a recipe for whole family burnout. So you have burnout in healthcare for people, we had whole family burnout, so it wasn't really wasn't working very well, this personal and professional synchronization. 

And then in terms of collaborating and working with others, I was in so many teams, because in infectious diseases, we work with literally every floor, every department, whether it's inpatient, outpatient, nursing home, every setting. And true, we were touching a lot of people's lives in a good way, but then when it came to the interpersonal friction amongst some of the people I worked with really closely, I was scratching my head that you know, I have all this leadership training and we're doing all this good work, why are we so miserable when we have to work together? It really beat me. And then at the systems level, we were contributing a lot to the organization with infection prevention, but really not seeing any of the rewards, you know whether it's for in terms of being acknowledged, or in terms of the compensation, or career progression. So at a self and teams and systems level, it was a complete failure at all levels. And it got me thinking, you know, like the whole point of being in healthcare or the whole point of learning leadership is so we can make our own lives and the lives of people around us. 

And I think again true, we were making the lives of patients better, but were we making our own lives better? And if people were working with? I'm not so sure. So I saw that as a failure of leadership and following those bread crumbs led me to the secret we talked about, that we can't be just so task focused all the time, we have to be relationship centered when we're taking on those tasks. And I think that's what I was missing, that led me to those failures. 

Pete 

Well, thank you. Very insightful. Amber. 

Amber 

So, you know, my experience in hospital systems is just beginning, right. Like I'm in my fourth year of medical school, so my experience is really mostly based on my rotations. Prior to medical school, I was an EMT, so I had some experience with the medical world, and then I worked in the ED as a scribe, so a little bit of experiences here and there.

But you know one thing that's sticking out to me in terms of like a time where I I thought leadership may not have been going as well as I had hoped was one of my rotations. You know, our rotations, some are better than the other, naturally. Like you have ups, you have downs. But on this specific one, and I think other students can resonate with this, it felt it felt very isolating. You know, I was, I felt like I was just there to kind of check a box. Like no one really cared if I was there, or if I wasn't there, they weren't really helping me find out like where I should go, where I should be, what I should be doing. But I was getting evaluated nonetheless. So it's like I had to kind of like figure it out for myself because I at the end of this rotation, I need an evaluation that determines my grade and whether I pass and move on. So, you know, there was a lot of, like, OK, well, I'll just put my best foot forward. And you know, I'm going to take care of my patients the best way I know how, and somebody will see. Maybe. So that was kind of how that rotation went and you know, I'll leave the outcome…ambiguous. 

But it just, the take home point for me, was that now when I'm on rotations and I see third year, second year, even first year medical students who are there to shadow, like I do make it my responsibility to tell them what I know, what their place can be, what they can do, “Hey, do you wanna come with me?” Like just little things like that, to make them feel like they have somebody who they can turn to, that they feel like they're showing up to that location for a reason. And there's something for them to gain and take out of that experience. That's just one example. 

Rahul 

That's got to be rough. Yeah, I’m remembering, I am listening to your story and remembering my first week of internship in India and my surgery attending told me this thing that you're gonna have two kinds of experiences in the year ahead. One which will teach you how to be and then the other, the exact opposite, are going to teach you how not to be.

Amber 

Mhm. 

Rahul 

And I think that stands true even today. 

Amber 

Yeah, exactly. 

Pete 

Oh yes, and I remember being on the floors and you watched the Med students just kind of walk around. They're trying to find something to do, like. Yeah, they're just. 

Amber 

Yeah. 

Pete 

Just looking around. Looking in charge this. Oh, this is interesting. 

Amber 

Yeah, because sometimes they don't know their place or what is expected of them. You might be thinking, oh, that Med student is not doing anything, but they might not know what they could do, you know. So.

Pete 

Right. Very true. Well, thank you. 

So my next question is, how is this exploration into leadership, how has it changed, or is it changing your your journey as you go along? 

I can go first while you're thinking. I can see you, I can see a burning, the wheels turning there. So, what it helped me do is change my mental model. As we've said, and you said it before, I was in the army, so the hierarchy was there. And I think I brought that right into healthcare because it was comfortable, and it's structured, right, and it's delineated, and you kind of know, where you're you are in the pecking order. 

But of course, you know at times I felt less than. I felt like I was the person just loading the trucks. As long as you got the trucks loaded, you're good to go, right? So, but what I've realized, and this fellowship has really solidified it for me, is realizing everyone's a person in their on their own personal journeys with their own history. And I used to just think, all right, that's just some nice story people are telling us. But it really sat with me this time. So now I listen and try to understand where everybody's coming from, no matter the role. I see you more as a person now, and not a doctor, a social worker or a Med student. So it's helped me connect a little better and not keep everybody in this silo. I guess if you want to, you know, in their role. I see them more as Rahul, Maya, and Amber, and not by your role. So that's helping me grow in my leadership. So now I'll pass it to you Maya. 

Maya 

Thinking two things and I probably, I'm not going to say either one well. I think connecting back to what you said about story, you know I I came to social work from being an English major, right? Like I came from being someone who just literally sat in my dorm room bed and read a lot of books and annoyed the math major who shared my room. 

And so, that piece has always come kind of naturally, like listening to people, getting people to talk like that, you know, telling stories like that all, sort of, comes naturally. But thinking about how to use that as a leadership skill, I think was the piece that I hadn't really thought about or, you know, seen described that way. So now, kind of using that level of awareness and I'm at a moment in my career which I've avoided for a really long time, which is there's probably some steps ahead that are actually formal leadership roles. Like that I can't, I can't duck it much longer. I've really like I I like the boots on the ground place and I'm really happy to stay there. But I'm like, you know what? I'm going to have to be a little braver and probably do the next thing because my team is going to need it. 

Right. Like you know, we have some succession to think about if I'm going to remain part of a team, so. I think thinking about how to like, let myself evolve and what I can use sort of as that moves forward is going to be. So it's an interesting place to be having these conversations as like it's really like in my face now like oh, I'm going to have to, I'm going to have to do some stuff, that I've managed to, you know, I'm always like kind of the power behind the throne, or to the right and the throne, and like helping other people get stuff done. And it's like, no, I'm actually going to have to be the forward facing person at some point. And I think that's the leap that happens across careers and trajectories. Like, Amber, you were talking about becoming a leader in your student organization, right? Like you had to make that leap from being OK I'll participate to being like, oh, no, I'm gonna sit on the exact board. I'm gonna help do the, you know, get the next thing done. That's a leap. So. 

Pete

Yeah, great.

Rahul 

Yeah. We're cheering you on, Maya. Go brave Maya. 

Pete 

So Rahul, how's your leadership changed over this journey? 

Rahul 

I think my answer is closer to yours. So on the surface it's changed me from this very task focused, self-centered, “I need to get this done” perspective, to a more grounded relationship-centered perspective. And in thinking about that perspective of relationships, it's made me think a little bit harder about “the why” and “the how,” of doing things, not just getting them done. And more importantly, it's made me realize how interconnected everything is and we are part of something much bigger ourselves and that's really freed me up to take these risks. And to be more effective in honoring others and listening to them and working with them.

So that's really been my change from this steady task-focused frame to a much more relationship-centered and impact-oriented frame. 

Pete 

I'm a very good taskmaster too, and I'm going to check boxes and, but yeah. 

Maya 

See, I've only gotten to know you guys, you know, recently and like, I don't know Rahul in any other way than as being like grounded in relationship-centered like that like that's all I know. So you're. 

Pete 

True. 

Rahul 

I have I have modes definitely, and I think that's part of being a leader that you have to have this range where in the beginning we may just have a default mode, but then as we find our footing in philosophy, we've built this range and can now use this range to be more effective. 

Pete 

Very true. All right. We want to hear from a student perspective. How is this leadership journey changed you so far, or is changing you? Or what can you anticipate? 

Amber 

Yeah, great question. And I think you know I I touched on some of these things in the beginning, so sorry getting ahead of myself there a little bit. But ditto to what everyone has said really, like I, I really resonate with what everyone has said. And I'm feeling those changes myself now as I'm transitioning from student to, oh my goodness, graduate, and hopefully resident in just a few weeks now. So you know, I think another big thing that I can add here is transitioning from working on developing my own leadership, to helping other people also find their full potential and develop there's. You know, I think that's one thing that I I'm seeing myself actively doing now. You know, sitting on executive boards, or sharing conversations with people about like what I've been doing the last few years, and engaging with this course and like, oh, how'd you do that? What, what? What tools like. And we end up having these very meaningful conversations about their own leadership journeys, and their leadership roles, or whatever they're nervous about, scared about, or wish they can do better and taking some of the tools and hacks, and applying it. So I think that you know, it's a very unique thing to be developing myself as a leader, but also you know taking other people with me on that journey. So very, very blessed for that. 

Pete 

Yeah, yeah, mentoring is excellent. 

Amber 

Yes. 

Pete 

It was very rewarding when you can see someone blossom. 

Amber

Yeah. 

Rahul 

Ambers come back to mentor the first year medical students in our leadership courses now three years in a row, as a second year, as a third year and now as a fourth year.

Amber 

You have to find someone to take the hat.

Maya 

Succession, right? 

Amber 

But it's been it's been an honor, honestly. Like without the site, I probably would not have met those first years, second years, and third years and now we have very meaningful relationships and that really that that coaching mentor mentee relationship that they can use for whatever they want even aside from leadership like we talked about other things you know, about just being a student.

Pete 

Yeah, yeah. Everyone likes to get a little help here and there. 

Amber

Exactly. 

Pete 

So the next concept I wanted to bring up is something we go over every time we meet, especially with the students, is the Rose-Bud-Thorn concept and maybe, maybe pinches. I'll leave that for Rahul to explain. The Rose-Bud-Thorn concept is something that's you're very proud of or excited about, the Rose. 

The bud is more about something that's just starting to begin, that you're hopeful for. And then Thorn, something that you're challenged with currently. 

Rahul 

Something that's pinching you. 

Pete 

Something that's really pinching you. So for the bud, I thought I'd start with Amber. 

Amber 

So something budding for me right now, let's see. So I am planning a conference. We're having a conference in March and so lots of meetings, lots of planning, but very excited and looking forward to that outcome. And I'll let you know how that conference goes next month. 

Pete 

Oh, excellent. So I guess a thorn for me is, and it's been a thorn for a while, is being able to ask better or more thoughtful questions. Especially when I get emotionally engaged, for better or for worse, because my default, which I've come to learn is, you know, my funny sarcastic side, or I totally shut down. So, because I don't want that conflict. 

So that's something that's been a thorn in my side and I continue to use communication tools, leadership tools, trying to hit it from all different angles. So that's one thing for me. 

Let’s go to Maya and her rose. 

Maya 

Wow, I've got a lot more buds than roses right at this moment. But, and I'm honest like I don't know if this is the place for this, but my rose is actually I've raised a pretty good young man who is launching out into college and literally we spent this weekend as a family, I guess this is a rose, we spent the weekend helping him finish a scholarship application that was actually all about leadership and he came up with this great analogy about, he's a bit of a musician, and he talked about being a dynamic lead singer, a lyricist, a reliable road crew, and a rock steady baseline. 

And I thought that was so fantastic, right? That and it really speaks to all the stuff we're talking about, right? Like, yes, I can be the shining star and I can be me and I can shop, but I can also, like, support other people. And like the fact that I've got a kid who innately seems to know these things when we're. 

Pete 

Yeah. 

Maya 

I think is really is really a rose and it then makes me think about, OK then how do I share this with other, right other young students who are in the same boat. 

Pete 

Right, right. Excellent. 

Rahul 

Love it. We're dedicating this episode to him. 

Pete 

Rahul, can you explain the pinch a little bit, and then tell us a little pinch that you have? 

Rahul 

So a pinch is something that's hurting you, maybe bothering you. And it's still something you're feeling safe enough to share with the people around you, whether it's for support or advice, sometimes you ask for advice with a pinch. 

So a pinch for me right now is my left shoulder has been hurting for a few weeks and I'm at the point where I've just started physical therapy and I'm hoping that that's gonna make it go away. And I don't have to go into more intricate procedures to deal with it. So it's been a pinch both because it hurts every time I raise my shoulder, and it's been a pinch because I've not been able to do some of my strength training for the shoulder and can now start to feel it. And so hoping it's going to get better soon. Sometimes the pinch can be emotional, you know, it can be something that someone said to you. There can be all sorts of pinches, but for me, I think I'm grateful that that's my pinch for today. 

Pete 

Excellent. So what is that one thorn in healthcare that you're hoping your leadership skills, tools, whatever you want to call them, that you can use to help you in the near future? I'll start with Amber because she's the youngest and doesn't have much history. 

Maya 

She's not jaded. 

Amber 

I think for me I mean the theme of my answers throughout this episode have been focused on community and culture and things of that nature. So I think for me just, you know, one thorn that I'm like looking to tackle with leadership skills is just that first step of creating or fostering this inclusive community where people feel safe. Safe to speak up, right. Safe to you know, bring up that pinch, or that conflict, that they that they see before it turns into something bigger. So that's one thing that, you know I'm pinpointing for now. For my thorn. 

Pete 

Great. OK. And one for me is again, on the asking, thoughtful open minded questions, but it's really to understand the other person's perspective better. I have discovered you know you had that quick judgment and then I can't let go of it. So you just kind of and you, you ask them a very or I ask a very direct question, and kind of miss all the context. So I'm trying to slow down, explain myself better with more context before I ask maybe a difficult question or something like that. And be more patient with my communication. I tend to be a taskmaster. I want to get it done. Go quick. And I jump from the beginning right to the end and I lose people in the middle. So that's one thing I'm working on in healthcare because I think being able to communicate better and bring people along your journey so they can help understand and get them to where you hope right? We're for better outcomes for everybody. Of course, we all want patients to have better outcomes, but we shouldn't be depleted of our own personal energy by the end. So, let's see, Maya. 

Maya 

What was the question again? I'm looking at the mountain. 

Pete 

The thorn in healthcare. 

Maya 

The thorn. You know, I came into this work to be an advocate for kids and family with chronic illness. Like that's where this started for me and my work, my scholarship, everything is really connected to patient voice and making sure that people's voices are heard because when people's voices aren't heard, I think that's right, where a lot of the disparities happen and when action doesn't happen for folks who can't help get their needs identified and that happens in individual visits, right? I only have 3 minutes to get my concern out to my provider before they're ready to move on, you know, not they're ready to move and they have to move on. You know, it's not. It's not the fault of the provider necessarily. But time is very crunched, but also right as Amber was talking about. You know, communities and culture and those pieces, like who has a voice and whose voice isn't being listened to, so to me like that's the thorn that I want to fix. I don't know quite how to fix that other than every healthcare professional that we train differently, right will maybe help change that, change the model of healthcare we have right now. But I think we need more concrete steps and I'm going to count on Peter for that. 

Pete 

Excellent. Rahul, what's that one thorn for healthcare that you're thinking about? 

Rahul 

I think I'm going to go with more, something more concrete. So for me, one challenge that I'm looking to address is in my clinician role, I'm transitioning out of my role as the director of infectious diseases at a Community Health Center where I am right now. And so, starting to build a little space to explore what the next journey is going to be in that clinician leader role. And I'm struggling with whether I should go to another larger healthcare system and try to do things at scale with others and to have an impact. Or is it now time to start to build something that's much smaller but is in more in line with the vision that we have that we've just talked about of healthcare and giving this whole person care to patients and not just addressing sickness and disease, but really helping the whole person and having those wonderful teams. So I'm really struggling with it at this point and I've given myself a few months to explore those options, before converging on what is the one best path ahead. 

Pete 

Yeah. Thanks for sharing. All right. 

Maya 

That’s exciting and scary and terrifying. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, we're here for you. 

Rahul 

And terrifying. At the same time. 

Pete 

Yeah. And we totally understand it. All right, So what are some takeaways from this podcast as we start to wrap this up from spending this this time together? Anyone got something top of mind? Or we can go around the room? 

Amber 

I think a key take away for me is just being open to other people's perspectives. You know, sitting here, getting to know you all. It's just truly inspiring and you can learn so much from just learning about someone's journey and what they're thinking and their perspective on things. So one take away for me. 

Rahul 

I'll echo that I think that for me, the take away has been what Peter said and has embodied and created a space for us in this episode, which is just learning about each other as a person. And if we can just do that in our little interactions every day, it's going to make us so much better as people and leaders. 

And then for our listeners, I think my take away is everything we do in this podcast is going to come back to something in self, or interpersonal and teams, and systems, and it's going to be done in a way that helps you become a better leader today. That's our promise to you. 

Pete 

Nice. I guess mine is, because I was the moderator, don't let your fears stop you. Because I thought this actually became a very comfortable podcast and is going to hopefully be edited and done very well by the end, but you know, I had all my fears clouding me in the beginning there. Uh, let's see. 

Maya 

Actually, I'll add on to that, Peter, that you know I was talking about sort of the evolution of our leadership and how scary it is. It can feel right. And Rahul, you're talking about sort of making that whatever that next decision ends up being or some combination of decision that you end up making. But sort of that, that ability to feel the feelings. Yes. I'm anxious. Yes, I'm scared. Yes, I don't. I don't know how to handle this pinch. I don't know how to handle this conflict, but being able to kind of take that, take that leap, I think there's bravery and courage in all of this. I guess those are synonyms, to be able to kind of take whatever our next steps are and hopefully we're giving that to our listeners as well. 

Pete

Yeah. 

Maya 

I guess I'm hoping also this develops to be a conversation like it's not like, oh, we're experts and we're telling you this stuff, but also that that you know, however, that happens, you know, as this develops that we're hearing from folks at all different levels and from all different professional backgrounds and experiences. So that, right, it's conversation, it's not. Hey, we figured it out and we're going to tell you, but that we're, you know, we're still I think all of us have framed ourselves as learners. So we're right in with our listeners. 

Pete 

Right. We have a couple of decades of experience. That's all. That's what I tell my students. 

Rahul 

Couple of decades of learning from our mistakes. That's right. It's still learning from more mistakes, yeah. 

Pete 

Yeah. 

Rahul 

Every time that that's the beauty of this field, that every time I get to interact with either an expert or with a student, I get to learn so much more and often it's the students who ask the greatest questions, which we have no answers to and send us on journeys. So if you're listening, and if you have a question for us, a topic, an expert you would want us to bring on, please reach out to us and we'd love to go on that journey with you. 

Pete 

Excellent. All right. Well, thank you all. Three of us, all four of us. Thank you. 

As today's moderator, thank you for participating in this conversation about leadership and healthcare from different interprofessional perspectives, net various times in our career journeys. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast for more relationship-centered leadership. Stay well until next time. Cheers to being our best selves, building relationships and teams, and making an impact on the healthcare system where we can. Thank you. 

Brooke

Thank you for listening to our show. Learning to Lead is a production of the Quinnipiac University podcast studio, in partnership with the Schools of Medicine, Nursing and Health Sciences. 

 Creators of this show are Rahul Anand, Maya Doyle, Peter Longley, Amber Vargas and Brooklynn Weber.

 The student producer is Brooklynn Weber, and the executive producer is David DesRoches.

 Connect with us on social media @LearningToLeadPod or email us at LearningToLeadPod@quinnipiac.edu.

Episode 1: This is US! Part 1 Transcript

Rahul 

Welcome to Learning to Lead, a podcast about leadership, teamwork, and reimagining healthcare. This podcast is for learners, educators, and healthcare professionals interested in building leadership skills in a supportive community.

We are your hosts Rahul Anand, Maya Doyle, Peter Longley, Amber Vargas, and Brooklynn Weber.

Together we bring you conversations with emerging and established leaders, deep dives and hacks to help you become the best leader you can be.

Pete

What does it mean to lead with both head and heart in healthcare? 

In this episode, we explore the origins of this podcast and the inspiration behind its focus on leadership in healthcare. You'll be introduced to a practical framework that can enhance your professional relationships—viewed through the lens of diverse interprofessional perspectives. Whether you're just starting your career or have decades of experience, there's something here for you. 

We’ll also share our personal stories—our leadership wins, the challenges we've faced, and the lessons we've learned along the way. You might even hear a few secrets we've uncovered about ourselves on this leadership journey. 

Stay tuned, because we are coming next! 

Pete 

Welcome everyone to healthcare relationships. Need a hug? A podcast about leadership, teamwork, and reimagining healthcare. My name is Peter Longley. I'm going to moderate for this episode, and we'll go into everyone introducing themselves, and we'll further go into our stories after that. 

So Maya first. 

Maya 

Hi everyone. How are you? I am Maya Doyle. I am a social worker and faculty in the social work program here at Quinnipiac. 

Rahul 

Hi everyone, I'm Rahul Anand. I'm an infectious disease physician and faculty at the Netter School of Medicine and I'm excited to co-host this podcast. 

Pete 

Amber. 

Amber 

Hi everyone. My name is Amber Vargas. I'm a medical student at Frank H Netter School of Medicine at Quinnipiac University. In my 4th year and going into emergency medicine. 

Pete 

Awesome. 

Very good. And I've just learned that you're in the ICU right now for your rotation. 

Amber

Yes. Oh yes, I I'm. I'm currently in the ICU learning how to, you know, learning more about critical care and management of really sick patients. 

Pete 

That was my old stomping grounds back in the SICU at Yale. 

Amber 

Oh yeah. Oh, wow. Oh, so we have a lot to talk about then, how did you like that? 

Pete 

Ohh, I loved it. Then I started having kids. 

Maya 

When I was in the I was in the PICU at Bellevue a long time ago too, so it's a fascinating environment. 

Amber 

Very intense I could imagine. 

Maya 

You can talk a lot about teamwork. And that ICU experience, I'm sure. 

Pete 

All right. Excellent. So I wanted to go a little bit deeper into our experiences so the listener understands where we're coming from because we're all coming from different points in our journey, our careers. So me, Peter, I'm a registered nurse with almost 30 years experience and I've had multiple roles, one of them being in the ICU. 

I've been a nurse manager. I've gone into data, into finance and now I'm, you know, a faculty member here at Quinnipiac and in school and nursing and my whole thing is what I'm trying to figure out, a solution to improve our healthcare situation here in America. I've always been interested in leadership ever since, I guess high school, since playing football and everyone wanted me to be the captain and I felt the pressure of that. I was like, I don't want to be captain. No. But then it happened again in the army and in nursing. And here today I'm just trying to understand all the theoretical framework behind it and how to share it so we can improve our healthcare system. 

Maya 

I've learned something new about Peter in football today, so thank you. It's exciting. So I've been also a social worker for around 30 years. I always worked in pediatric settings, mostly at large urban hospitals. I've always primarily been the boots on the ground, direct care person. I've had no formal leadership roles ever. But yet I've always thought of myself as an informal leader, helping get things done, helping my team get things done, helping recognize when things are going well or not going well with our team, or hey, we need to do something else on behalf of our our patients. And I think I bring that same vibe now to where I am in my department as a faculty member, but also where I am with our students. 

But thinking about also how as we all evolve, right, how do we make that leap from maybe informal being role models and being supporters to actually being folks who have a little bit more power than me change. So we've already been on a bit of a journey together and learning about this, so I'm excited to see where it goes. 

Pete 

Great. Whoever's next, Rahul. 

Rahul 

Alright, I'll go next. 

Yeah. So I share what Maya said about being boots on the ground. I think that's what connects the four of us that we're all frontline boots on the ground, very close to the patients in our careers and now very close to students and learners. So my journey started in India. I did my medical training there, connected my family's health journey to becoming a physician and wanted to make my own life. And of those around me better and of people I could take care of. I did a medicine residency in India and then came to the US after that. And had to do another medicine residency. So one of the happiest days was when I had to do no more night call of residency. 

And I felt that in all of the work done as a clinician educator, which I am at heart, there was. There were opportunities to lead at every step, whether it's interacting with the patient or family or with team members. And then when I took up infectious diseases, it's an it's a specialty where you're always either working with a patient or family with a very distressing situation. Or you're a consultant and you're negotiating and communicating and collaborating with multiple teams. Or you're working with the health system and looking at organizational or system issues to make an impact. So I felt and ended up in a specialty with an outsized impact of leadership and teamwork. And that's partly how I got interested in it. 

Pete 

Oh, great. Amber, what's your story? 

Amber 

So for me, leadership has been like this abstract idea where you just kind of formulate a framework based on experiences you have like positive and negative experiences and you know, strive to be the leader you think is a great one. And then when I came to medical school and Dr. Anand introduced this course of leadership for medical students, it was very intriguing. Like, what is this course about like, what is it focused on? And he was very passionate about it. So I took it as an elective and then when I was in the in the course, I was like, oh, wow, this is so meaningful, so impactful, so life changing. And it actually did have like a really big impact on my life and my career advancement and journey thus far. I feel like a lot of the things that I've gotten involved with throughout medical school and now the career that I'm pursuing post medical school is very intertwined with leadership and building that part of myself. So for example, some of the things I got involved with in medical school is the Latino Medical Student Association. I sit on the Executive Board and at the regional level and at the national level now. 

And not only have I, you know, made strides in my own leadership development, but being able to take that to the other people in my organization who are also invested in being leaders in their community and serving very vulnerable patient populations, it's just it's been incredible to see how the things we are learning in the classroom and this course can be translated to real time and helping patients in real time, so that's a little bit of my journey. 

Pete 

Yeah. And you're going to need leadership in the ED. 

Amber 

Oh yeah, yeah. In the ED, and then, yeah, like, you know, in EM there's further opportunities for learning more about administration and operations, which is something that I'm definitely interested in now that I have like this foundation. 

Pete 

Wow, excellent. 

So where did this all begin? Couple years ago, the three of us, Peter, Maya, and Rahul became my PE fellows at Quinnipiac and did a fellowship, and we ended up deciding to land on leadership and expand upon one of Rahul’s leadership courses and we took it and put some structure around it and put some students through the experience of being a little more vulnerable. Knowing when to speak up, putting some of those soft leadership skills to work. But it was funny on how all three of us came together and we all kind of had an itch or liking or an interest in in leadership. So it's wild how we kind of just landed there. 

Maya 

Well, and two things to say. 

First, you know IPE being interprofessional education, right? The idea of how folks from multiple professions can learn from and about and with each other, which is really unique. Interprofessionalism is actually why I came to Quinnipiac, because that's how I've always worked as a social worker. Like you know, we're multidisciplinary, interdisciplinary, interprofessional was like a new term. But I was like, that's where I want to be. And so it's it's really delightful to be part of, lots of events here at the university that are, that are interprofessional.

But I think the other piece, that you bring up Pete, is sort of how we came together to get to that idea and Rahul, our design thinking expert can probably tell us a little bit more about that process, right. But coming up with all these different ideas we all came applied for that fellowship with different thoughts and then eventually we're able to like. This is what we're, this is what we can do and this is what we can do for students with the thought that that's going to help the system be better down the road, right, because we have a new generation of healthcare providers who can have maybe a different way of being with each other than even we've had in our own professional experiences. So. So yeah, that was a really great experience of coming together and making those decisions live. 

Pete 

Yeah, Rahul, what do you remember about that, way back when? 

Rahul 

So I'll go back to the beginning. So this was 2018, when I joined Quinnipiac, stepping into the world of teaching medical students full time, and I remember it's a beautiful campus walking around, looking at students and they're there. But as a student, their core priority was survival. They're surviving these flash cards, these tests, these exams, scores on the STEP, if that goes well, getting into a residency so they're not queuing up to take a course on leadership. But what I see is that as both as students and as the academic leaders, the entire focus was on the what like how can we get this knowledge, this content, get our scores and residency. Or on the academic side, how can we run a successful school that it wasn't that we're thinking about how to create the next generation of leaders, the next generation of healthcare professionals, the next reimagined and better healthcare system. We were so busy with the “what,” that we were losing track of the “why” and the “how” and the “who” for whom it exists and we do it with. 

So I had a colleague at that time, Jennifer Drilling, a pathologist, who had cut her teeth in the Navy and we scoured around the world looking at the best leadership development programs. And we came up with a common theme in all of those programs about starting with the foundation leading oneself, then building up to teams, and then finally trying to understand and make an impact on the system. So we built our curriculum in the self, teams, and systems format and we bring it to life in 2019, somehow navigated through COVID in 2020 to keep it alive, even expand it a little bit. And then I went to Harvard Macy in 2021 in their educators program at the Harvard Macy Institute Program for Educators and came back in 2021 as a scholar with great dreams, and we're going to take it to the core curriculum, have lots of students in this, who will love it. And none of that happened. 

Our class size went down to 3. So it was like 3 students. My co-faculty left the institution, and it was a no go in the core curriculum. So while every healthcare professional is a leader, it's not that they're queuing up to learn leadership in their training because they're so busy surviving. 

So then came this fellowship, and I went back to Harvard Macy Institute in their Leading Innovations Program, where I learned design thinking and looking at things from an end user perspective. And the end user perspective here, which is the students, and the trainees, and you know, the early faculty perspective, is that we need to personalize this learning and we need to situate it in a way that works for us today, not ten years from now. And we need to do it in a community of like minded people who are going to support us and develop us and root for us when the chips are down or when the chips are up. 

And so that's how we went from, you know, this core curricular dream to really meeting reality, which was a community of practice model that this can exist in a co-curricular and interprofessional space with a community of like minded people. So I'm glad that I met the two of you, then. And one of the things we learn in infectious disease training is when you're negotiating with the surgeon, how to make them think it is their idea to go to the operating room for an exploration, to find the pus that could exist inside. And so I'm so grateful that when we talked about it, the common thread that we had was: How can we build better teams that have stronger relationships? That's where we began and then, you know, we expanded to the full self, teams, systems, even on the interprofessional side. And I think this podcast is an extension of that because our promise to our listeners is that we want to give you something that's useful to you today and we want to give you something that's going to help make your life and the life of your people around you better. So we want to give you tools that you can use today and that can make your life and the lives of people around you better. 

And then came Amber. So I'm going to pass the ball to Amber to tell us how we got involved and how we built this further. 

Pete 

Before we go there, could I clarify something? Were me and Maya the surgeon, and then you brought us in and made us go…

Rahul 

Absolutely. 

Pete 

To the OR?

Rahul 

Absolutely. As long as leadership is not the pus that we're looking for. 

Maya 

Exactly. 

Amber 

Oh my goodness. 

Pete 

I'm sorry. Go ahead, Amber. 

Amber 

No, no, that's great. Dr. Anand, you said something that really resonated with me about, you know, medical students surviving, right and like, not necessarily thinking that they need to take this leadership course or need to sit down and learn these things because they're too busy with, you know, thinking about all the things that they need to graduate and to move on to residency or whatever career goals, aspirations that they have. But you know, throughout this journey with leadership interacting with the course and students and throughout my medical school career, several students have trusted me with, you know, with their feelings about being placed in these situations where they're expected to be a leader but not necessarily feeling ready for those situations or knowing what to do or how to best go about it. You know where some examples include student government, student-led groups at the school, national, regional organizations that are student run. So there's all these things, free clinics, that we run like Bobcat health, right? Like there's there's so many things that students are expected to do, expected to run, they, but then they find themselves in a position and they're like, wait, what do I do? How do I do this? So that's why it's really important to have some of these tools in their pocket and to really be able to to have some kind of foundation to lean on when they're feeling that. So that's something that you know, we were able to do with the course. So right. 

Rahul 

Yeah, that's so true. And this can how one relates to these challenges, the tools that you may or may not possess to address these challenges, the people who you could gather with to tackle these challenges together and the sense of agency that you develop and in addressing these challenges can really define one's attitude when bigger challenges come up ahead. So I think having the tools to successfully address some of these challenges can make a student or a trainee, or someone early in their career really flourish rather than the other way around. 

Amber 

Yeah, I'm happy to talk about some of these tools as we get more, you know, sessions. 

Rahul 

Yeah, it's no different as a full-fledged healthcare professional because when we deal with systemic challenges and we're not able to come to terms with the system, that's a huge cause of burnout. 

Pete 

Yeah, very true. 

Maya 

And if I can just add too, just going back to our self, teams, system model, for me, teaching social workers and you know, Pete, you may have the same thing with nursing students and obviously we have lots of other professions within our schools too. But for me, I was teaching about, we teach about organizational theory to our MSW students. Most of them are going out to work in agencies in in Connecticut, either health or mental health agencies. And so we were teaching some basics about you know how organizations work and a little bit about leadership. But it wasn't really coming alive. And I think when we started talking about those relationship pieces, you know, which especially in social work like that's key to our ethics. But I hadn't completely made that connection until we kind of all started putting all those pieces together, so it's, I think it's changing if it's changing what I can bring to students, and I hope we're also changing what other faculty can bring to students and then also what right, what we can give you all to say, OK, I'm in this position. What the heck do I do? What the heck do I do with this now? Yeah, so. 

Amber 

So kind of a framework mindset. 

Maya 

Yeah, you need. You need that for sure. 

Amber

Yeah. 

Pete 

Great. And I want to create the mental model for our listeners. We all know what we're talking about when we say self, teams, and systems. 

So for the listener, if you have 3 concentric circles and you put yourself in the middle, you're building yourself personally and professionally. You bring in your best self to work or to school. The next circle is built up of, you know, working in teams. So that's interpersonal relationships. And then when you go to the 3rd circle, the outer circle it's impacting systems and belonging to a community that's larger than yourself and the teams. So I just wanted to create that so the listener can kind of visualize it the way they want to see it. Their own little circles. 

So let's see here, next topic. 

So Rahul. What does leadership mean to you? 

Rahul 

Yeah, I'll build on what you just said, Pete. So leadership, unlike what I had thought early in my career, it's not a title, it's not a position, it's if you look at the textbook definition, it's about influencing and working with others towards a goal that's greater than any one person themselves. When I think of it in healthcare, especially as a healthcare trainee or early career mid-career, I think leadership is about being one's best self personally and professionally first of all. Because that core domain in the middle, self, is really important. You cannot pour from an empty cup and connecting one's personal mission and values to the professional journey, and the projects and the causes we step up for is really important. It gives us the power to say hell yes to what we believe in and it gives us the power to say no to what doesn't matter as much to us. So that's the core circle, being one's best self personally and professionally. 

Outside that is building meaningful relationships and being a follower and leader in effective teams. And then, in the circle that's outermost, is impacting systems because that's where our life's work comes in. Touching patients, doing projects that make an impact on the organizational community. And we work in a system that's very resistant to change. 

And so, trying to impact systems by yourself is the road to burnout. And that's why the systems and community go hand in hand, because learning to embed oneself in a community of people that are working on the same cause and overtime, trying to build and contribute to that community, or communities, is a key piece of leadership. 

So to sum up, for me, leadership is not a title or position. It's about being one's best self personally and professionally, building meaningful relationships and effective teams, and making an impact on the system while being embedded in a community of like-minded people. 

Pete 

Oh, that's great. And I have something in my story. You triggered it. I'll bring it back later. 

Rahul 

Let's hear it. 

Maya 

No, let's hear it now. 

Pete 

When I was a nurse manager, young, eager, I thought I was persistent and persuasive enough, and I was going to try to do it and fix it all myself. And I burned out. I actually got out of healthcare for a little while. And found myself coming back because I missed that connection. But, it did happen. You know, I put on a lot of weight. My blood pressure went up. I was trying to move the mountain, but I was all by myself. I thought everybody, you know, in healthcare was idealistic, like myself. I found out I was wrong. 

Rahul 

That's rough. And some lessons come by hearing others and their challenges, like we're trying to share, and some, these deep insights, come because we've experienced it. And then it becomes crystal clear that there is a different path which could get us there and you know, same here. 

Pete 

Yeah. 

Rahul 

I've had my journey as well, journeys at this point, so we can I think we can call ourselves mutually, we can call ourselves recovering frontline healthcare providers. 

Maya 

For sure. Yeah. I'm definitely also with someone who's like, I'm just going to get these things done. It'll get done more efficiently if I just do it myself. And so I would take all of that on. And actually the experience of having what you were sharing about your family's journey, like going through some serious caregiving with my family members, made me go, oh, you know what A) I can't do this myself, but also nobody's doing it themselves and taking care of these folks, either they're all working in teams. I got to work with those teams, plus my own teams. And yeah, you can't. You just can't do it. You can't do it all alone, no matter how sunny our dispositions may be. 

Pete 

I used to be a lot sunnier. 

So leadership for me is grabbing into that vision and mission. I'm wondering if one, it's part of my personality, idealism, but also I went to the army right out of high school and it was all about the mission, and vision, and getting everybody on board. And I have, I guess, compassion and empathy for the team and I think I did that when I was a nurse manager and everyone just kept saying, oh, yeah, there you go, there's more work. 

So you know, some of the lessons are tough to learn. Leadership also means having integrity and being honest. And sometimes I was, challenged, or my integrity was challenged. That's probably a better way to say it. And I’d become resistant at that time. So trying to learn how to navigate those roads and with communication, so I've been working on my communication skills ever since, to try to articulate exactly what I mean so other people can hear it. 

But Amber, I would love to hear what you think leadership is. Or what it means to you? 

Amber 

Yeah. So, I mean, a lot of my real framework of leadership came from taking the course with Dr. Anand. So part of my answer coincides with his answer. But I'll frame it a little differently, but it has the same core meaning. You know, I think leadership is very multifaceted. There's a lot of things that go into the definition of like a strong leader, a good leader, right. But I think one thing to focus on or zero in on could be the team. I think a team tells you a lot about a leader. You know how that team is functioning. You know, there's this phrase: “Show me a team, I'll show you the leader.” Right. So how are they working together? How motivated are, motivated are they by the mission that they're working towards? How is the community? Do they do they feel like they belong there? Do they want to be there? And I think that that's a reflection of the leader who's leading that team. And then if you want to take it a a step further and think about like the self and the system based part of it, like you need to bring your best self to leading a team because I feel like, you, that's the only way to effectively like communicate, to effectively listen, to effectively delegate, to do anything you need to be able to be taking care of yourself and bring your best self forward. And then systems wise, like you can't, not one person can make an impact by themselves. You need to have a good team in order to see the change that you want to see, so I think it's all very, very intertwined. So that's my take.

Pete 

I agree. All right, so I want, I'm curious. So we'll go back around, what's your secret to being a good leader? 

Amber 

My secret, my secret to being a good leader. 

Pete 

Well, it's not going to be a secret anymore but go ahead. 

Amber 

I think finding a good team. I think that it's really the team that makes it, you know, like I think. What is it that relate? Why is it that I need to be a leader in this situation or in this project, right? What's the core goal? And then finding a team who's also passionate about that goal, is also very invested in that mission. And then just working together towards that. So I think that that's the secret, not forcing anyone to be somewhere where they don't want to be is part is is a big part of it. 

Pete 

So what I'm hearing is culture and environment. 

Amber 

Yeah. 

Pete 

Have a lot to do with leadership and teamwork. 

Amber 

Absolutely. 

Pete 

Excellent. Very nice. Well, I guess you can kind of guess what my leadership secret is, and it's using humor. Try to bring levity to the situation, bring the stress down. Let people just get those endorphins moving. 

Because it just tweaks the mindset just a little bit differently to get them to hear you, hopefully better. So then you can give the message. That's what I've learned. Some of the negatives of that, I think is sometimes you know I can overuse it and I've learned that humor, you can correct me if you think differently, that it is an indirect way of communicating your message. And I didn't, it never came to me, like I it didn’t come to you for a while. I was like, oh, maybe that's why I'm a little sarcastic too. That's my communication style. And it all stems, you know, back from childhood, you can have direct conflict, but it was, uh. So I use this as my tool to communicate and lead myself and around my family now. 

So Maya. What's your secret? 

Maya 

I think there's a combination of initiative, like I'm going to be, but in a vulnerable way. Like I'm going to be the one to be brave and say, hey, I think this is the way we should go. And you might disagree with me, and you might say no, that let's no, here wait, there's something else to add, but being sometimes the one to be able to kind of open that conversation and say, OK, we got to get, we got to get something done. And I'm definitely of this group, like, I am the most impatient one. I'm always like, OK, come on, let's do this. Right. I know it. I know it about me. I'm known at home for, like, not letting people finish conversations because I'm like, wait, you're going to say this right? It's just who I am. You know, Mia culpa. But I think doing that in a way that A) is my own vulnerability, right? Because I'm actually not all that self confident. But I have, right? But you have to be. You have to be able to put yourself out there. And on the flip side, I think hearing from your team members and listening to your team members about where they're vulnerable, about where they're struggling because you don't know always, you can't always, just find a great team. Like I'm totally down with what you said, Amber, but half the time, you don't necessarily find the great team. You find a team who's struggling with each other, and then you have to build different relationships with each member of that team, a nd kind of figure out like all right, what motivates this person might be different than what motivates that person. So I need those individual relationships.And the team relationship.

I think that's where it gets. Tricky, right? Because you're not just managing. I'm like, it's not like I just have a connection with Peter and I just have a connection with Amber I just have a connection with Rahul. It's got to be all of us together, which is next. Right? That's that next circle of the, of our ecological model. If I can be social working. So, you know, moving outward to that. But I think there's some, that vulnerability piece becomes, I think really important. Which sounds contrary, don't have the right word, contrary to what you'd expect, right? You would expect someone to be like, “This is the way we should do things.” And it's much more like, “Hey, is this the way we should do things?” So I think that's a piece. 

Pete 

Thank you. Rahul, what's your secret? 

Rahul 

I'm building on what Maya said, because questioning those assumptions is what leads us to the secrets that we discover from our mistakes. And so I've certainly discovered from my mistakes. 

Maya 

Mhm. 

Rahul 

For me, the secret sauce of leadership is relationships. And again, I'd break it to the three domains. So with oneself, the biggest thing is connecting your personal mission and values to the professional causes and projects because it gives us the power to say hell yes and it's so rewarding that we believe in those causes that now we're not chasing titles or external rewards, we're really into the cause. 

In the teams domain, we’re really task focused a lot of the time and I was very much like that, still am. You have more awareness than I do, Maya. But it's been that it's not going. You feel like you're pushing to get the tasks done, but being relationship center rather than task focused, is a much easier and more effective way of getting things done. Where you understand the people you work with and you can build trust and then things get done so much easier and better. 

And then I think with the system, we come across these challenges, alerts, news, so many things are thrown at us. And so my secret of dealing with that is to stay within my locus of control. What is it that's in my locus of control? What's the next step I can take to address what matters most to me, and that's where I will focus my energy. 

Pete 

Yes, one thing I keep learning as I mature, not getting older, is the energy. Where do I want to spend my energy? Is this situation that I'm in, is it giving me energy or is it draining my energy? So I've been paying attention to that a lot more lately. 

All right, so now on the flip side, I'll start, but an example of when leadership didn't turn out the way we anticipated or hoped for. 

So I'll go back to my nurse manager example, so of course I wanted to change the world. I thought I could do it. Finding out that changing culture and mindsets is very, very difficult. Even if you have a good argument. Gaining trust is challenging, and it's a day in day out, kind of endeavor and you can lose that trust very quickly. 

I had a lot of personal wear and tear, so my vision of what I could do, and what was, you know, me, keep trying to go in every day and working. You know, 12 to 16 hours a day, six days a week, when I was a manager and still nobody was happy, including myself, it wasn't worth it. It wasn't bringing my long term vision of being healthy, being there for the family and the kids, and enjoying life. It wasn't there, so I had to sidestep that that piece. 

Let's see, Maya. What about something when leadership didn't go the way you had hoped? 

Maya 

Well, I'm going to take this back to the story that I think I told when we all met each other the first time. Which is that in my last hospital role, I was part of a phenomenal interprofessional, multidisciplinary team. We did amazing things for our patients. Everybody was smart. Everybody had strong personalities like you know, we got a lot done. But there were also things under the surface where there were some things that were really toxic. There were some relationships that really undermined our effectiveness and our effectiveness and our relationships with patients. And the folks who were titled to be leaders, never wanted to address it. 

And so, I worked with this team directly for many years, and then I still work peripherally, peripherally with the program, so I'm in touch with the same folks. And after all this time, I hadn't seen a lot of change. And what stood out to me, and I think it ties back to what I said about sort of vulnerability and maybe courage, is the flip side of that, that when you're in a leadership role, you have to also be courageous enough to say to your team, whether you're a coworker or a manager, right? Something's not working here, something we need to talk about this and address this. We can't ignore whatever that whatever that problem is, because you're not working together, you know, as colleagues and within your team, you're not going to have success at getting the patients what they need. And in fact, you're going to have dissatisfaction from the patients and you're going to have, like, “I don't know if I want to get care here anymore,” kind of situations. 

So you know, so I think that that remains a lesson and it's not that any, it's not like I would say, oh, there was a person who was responsible for that, or a person who was doing that. But you know, that dynamic was not changing, over a very long period of time. And so I think that's, you know, and I also I want to be empathetic to folks who are on the management and administration side, that there is a lot of, those are hard conversations to have, and we'd rather probably avoid them so. 

Pete 

Right, and I have struggles, like you know it, and what's that like first step, first approach? How do you how do you approach it? Because I don't want to aggravate them, I want to address it. I'm not looking for a conflict, but I know this is not the best way to get about this. 

And I've learned that over the years I've got, well, all right. Amber's just having a bad day, and I'll see it, but I'll like I won't address it. You know Rahul’s a good guy, he never, he probably didn't mean it. That kind of stuff. And I would just let it go. So what I've learned over the years is as soon as you see it, just kind of say something, and keep it small, or it blows up. 

Brooke

Thank you for listening to the first part of this episode. Stay tuned for the second part where we will continue sharing our stories, starting with some of our leadership failures.

Brooke

Thank you for listening to our show. Learning to Lead is a production of the Quinnipiac University podcast studio, in partnership with the Schools of Medicine, Nursing and Health Sciences. 

Creators of this show are Rahul Anand, Maya Doyle, Peter Longley, Amber Vargas and Brooklynn Weber.

 The student producer is Brooklynn Weber, and the executive producer is David DesRoches.

 Connect with us on social media @LearningToLeadPod or email us at LearningToLeadPod@quinnipiac.edu.