Episode 4: The Woes of War

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Transcript:

Dr. Ira Helfand: We are closer to nuclear war than we have ever been, and we're not acting that way. We're ignoring this problem to a very dangerous degree.

David DesRoches: If anyone understands this danger. It's Dr. Ira Helfand. He's worked for organizations that were awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1987 and in 2017. He's speaking here at the 2024 World Summit of Nobel Peace Laureates in Monterey, Mexico.

Dr. Ira Helfand: We have all seen images of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, their powerful warnings of what nuclear weapons can do. They do not prepare us for what is going to happen if nuclear weapons are used. Again, Hiroshima was a small bomb. By today's standards, it will not be. One small bomb on one or two cities. It will be many bombs on many cities, each of which will be six to 50 times more powerful than the bomb that destroyed Hiroshima.

Within a thousandth of a second. A fireball would form reaching out for three kilometers in every direction within this area. Everything would be vaporized. The buildings, the trees, the people. The upper level of the earth itself would disappear to a distance of nine kilometers in every direction. The heat would be so intense that automobiles would melt and to a distance of 25 kilometers in every direction.

Everything that can burn would burn. Wood, plastic cloth, paper, gasoline. It would all ignite hundreds of thousands of fires, which over the next half hour would join together into a giant firestorm, 50 kilometers across within this entire area. The temperature would rise to 800 degrees centigrade. All of the oxygen would be consumed.

And every living thing would die

in the case of Moscow. Nine to 10 million people. In the case of New York, 12 to 15 million people in the case of Mexico City, perhaps 15 to 20 million people, and those who survived would be living in a world which we cannot imagine. There'd be no electric grid. There'd be no cell phones. There'd be no public, uh, health system.

There'd be no food distribution system. There'd be no ability to live the kind. End of life that we all depend on. And in the months which followed this initial attack, most of the people who did not die on the first day would also succumb. They would die from starvation, from radiation poisoning, from epidemic disease.

This is not the scenario for a bad movie. This is the danger we are living with every day, that we continue to allow these weapons to exist, and this is the problem, which is confronting us urgently.

David DesRoches: If Doctor Finn's description of nuclear war doesn't scare the crap out of you. I don't know if you're human.

I mean, is he right though? I gotta be honest, I feel like we hear stuff like this all the time that the end of the world is around the corner. I mean, whether it's the The Pandemic or Russia, North Korea super volcanoes or poison chicken nuggets, it seems like there's always something out there just chomping at the bit to destroy humanity.

So is this more fear-mongering? Let's talk about nuclear holocaust, or are we really that close to nuclear war?

Rachel Bronson: Today we once again set the doomsday clock to express a continuing and unprecedented level of risk.

David DesRoches: Oh, the doomsday clock. I remember first hearing about that thing years ago. You remember that?

The clock that tells you how close we are to totally annihilating ourselves. I mean, I used to think it was ridiculous. Just one more thing for us to be afraid of. Or maybe we should pay more attention. I mean, think about the fact that the Doomsday Clock was developed by Albert Einstein, Jay Robert Oppenheimer, and other Manhattan project scientists.

Soon after the United States dropped two atomic bombs on Japan in 1945. The concept of the clock is simple. The closer we are to midnight, the closer we are to global catastrophe. And as of January 20, 25 or 89 seconds to midnight, the closest it's ever been. Why,

Alex Glaser: uh, many weapon states are currently pursuing, uh, extensive modernization and, uh, expansion programs, uh, that will really for the first time since the end of the Cold War, uh, there's now talk in, in, in Washington, uh, that the US nuclear arsenal will have to increase, um, also, uh, in order to match, uh, the arsenals of Russia and China combined.

Um, so in many ways we're, uh, setting ourselves up for a three way, uh, arms race, which is, uh, unprecedented and, and quite, uh, concerning. So the picture is quite bleak, uh, in on the nuclear site this year.

David DesRoches: The new nuclear arms race is expected to be much worse than the Cold War race that ended in the 1980s.

That's because this time around there are three players, Russia, the US, and China. And the last remaining agreement to keep nuclear weapons in check. Well, that agreement expires in February of 2026. That means there will be no limits on nuclear expansion. Throw in all the concerns about ai, and it's worse than a powder keg.

But let's put this into context. The threat of nuclear war is scary as a thought, but the reality of real actual war happening all over the globe. Well, that's not a hypothetical. There are real people dying, horrible, violent, and preventable deaths because of war.

Joyce Ajlouny: The amount of bombs that hailed on Gaza exceeded by three times in tons.

In only 11 months what has been dropped on Hiroshima and Zaki.

David DesRoches: That's Palestinian American. Joyce Looney speaking at the Peace Summit. She's the General Secretary of the American Friends Service Committee, which won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1947.

Joyce Ajlouny: So yes, we want to prohibit nuclear weapons, but we also seek a world where we have no weapons at all.

Yes, no weapons.

David DesRoches: A world with no weapons at all. And it almost seems impossible. In fact, one of the arguments in favor of nuclear weapons is that they're a deterrent from war more generally. But, but, and I think I can say this with some confidence, wars are just as common now as they have ever been. In fact, as far as the United States is concerned, American troops have been involved in some form of military intervention abroad nonstop since World War ii.

In fact, in our 249 year history as a country. We have been involved in nearly 400 military interventions around the world. Historians estimate that we have only experienced about 15 or 20 years of total peace during the last two and a half centuries. I mean, of course, war's not a uniquely American phenomenon.

Nearly 2 billion human beings have been killed because of war since the dawn of civilization, either directly through violence or indirectly through infection or starvation. Over the past 3,400 years, humans have been entirely at peace for less than three centuries. That's just 8% of recorded history.

And war is big business. It's something that President Dwight Eisenhower noticed after the Second World War in which he warned about in his final address to the nation.

President Dwight Eisenhower: In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought by the military industrial complex.

The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. Fast

David DesRoches: forward to today. Did we pay attention? Joyce Uni would argue that we have not

Joyce Ajlouny: total military expenditure in 2023 reached over $2.5 trillion, trillion dollars.

An increase of about 7% from the year before it. This was the steepest year on year increase since 2009. The 10 largest spenders in 2023 led by the United States, which is about takes 40% of that China and Russia all increase their military spending. With the top 100 arms companies generating over $500 billion in sales, this focus diverts attention and resources from critical social needs and perpetuates violence and overshadows diplomatic solutions.

David DesRoches: Columbia University economist Jeffrey Sachs, points out the hypocrisy inherent in the idea that. Instruments of war can build peace.

Jeffrey Sachs: The

David DesRoches: world is

Jeffrey Sachs: threatened profoundly by the impunity of a few great powers, and I'm afraid to say, especially my own country, the United States, the United States is engaged in essentially nonstop wars all over the world.

My country has 750 overseas military bases. 750 and these military bases are in more than 80 countries. And my country, and I can tell you on my block in New York City, there are homeless people. Uh, there are closed shops, there are shootings and, uh, and stabbings. Uh, in, in Manhattan, uh, my country's spending more than a trillion dollars a year.

On armaments right now and on a network of military bases around the world that not only do not provide me with one illa of security, provide no security whatsoever because these are institutions of war. They're not protectors of peace.

David DesRoches: Consider this from 2020 to 2024. Private firms have received $2.4 trillion in contracts from the Pentagon. Yes, you heard that correctly. $2.4 trillion and nearly a third of that money went to only five. Companies, Lockheed Martin, RTX, Boeing General Dynamics, and Northrop Grumman. This is more than double what the United States spent on diplomacy, international development and humanitarian aid during that same period.

To say that in another way, we spent more money on five weapons manufacturers. Then we spent on diplomatic efforts and humanitarian aid around the world. And now with U-S-A-I-D all but eliminated and defense budget's going up again, peace seems even more elusive.

Izzeldin Abuelaish : You know, we hear so much about foreign policy and strategy, but I defy you to find in an example where someone did a single sultry thing.

For foreign policy as opposed to winning the next election. I mean, uh, all, you know, making money.

David DesRoches: That's journalist and author Andrew Coburn from an episode of the Intercepted Podcast. In the episode host, John Schwartz talks with him about his 2021 book, the Spoils of War Power Profit, and the American War Machine.

They talk about how defense spending isn't about keeping people safe, and it's not even about spreading democracy. It's simply about what most things in life are about, sadly,

John Schwartz : money. So, I, I wanted to quote something that, that you yourself had written in the book at the beginning. You say. Outsiders generally find it hard to grasp an essential truth about the US military machine, which is that war fighting efficiency has a low priority by comparison with considerations of personal and internal bureaucracies.

The military are generally not interested in war save as a means to budget enhancement.

Izzeldin Abuelaish : Well, that is, you know, patently true. I mean, um. I guess I have to sort of, you know, allow an exception maybe, you know, in the immediate aftermath of Pearl Harbor, perhaps. But largely it's completely true and, uh, you know, it, I mean my, one of my story I heard a long time ago, which I quote in the book, which was told me by a late.

Friend of mine, Dick Hallock, who was a officer in the Korean War in winter, gets jolly cold in Korea. The army's boots were completely inadequate and everyone was getting frostbite and um, in fact, most of the casualties in that first winter of the war were from frostbite because they had these terrible boots.

So they used to raid the Chinese trenches. To steal Chinese boots 'cause they were kind nice and warm and well padded and sort of, you know, kept your feet warm and the toes didn't fall off. And he said, he said, he used to think to himself, why am I a soldier in the richest country in the world risking my life to steal the boots of soldiers of the poorest country in the world?

And the reason was that they were, the military was spending, you know, the defense budget had gone through the roof, of course, uh, with the onset of the war, but the money wasn't going. To buy boots. It was going to buy B 47 nuclear bombers, which could fly at great speed most of the way to Russia. But they were pouring billions into that.

Why? Because I, I was convinced, obviously, 'cause the aerospace manufacturers, um, had rather more political, you know, clout and money than the boot makers. So forget the boot makers. It's the, it's the airplane manufacturers who got the money.

David DesRoches: And think about what it's like today. Think about all those nonprofits and fundraisers that exist to send American troops, things like new boots or socks or whatever.

In fact, the Center for New American Security has counted over 45,000 nonprofits that exist to help service members and veterans. Okay, let that sink in for a second. We spend nearly a trillion dollars a year on defense with a massive portion of that money going to corporations, and somehow at the same time, we need 45,000 nonprofits to help the actual soldiers who do the actual defending.

Something is not right with that picture. I. Meanwhile, more than 1400 people die each day due to war and violence. That is one death every minute of every day on planet Earth. Is this. Simply who we are as a species is, is making money more important than human life is killing each other for ridiculous reasons, just in our DNA.

Well, when it comes to violence being a genetic human trait. Not really. There's no quote unquote war gene, but testosterone is linked to aggression, and we know that most armies are comprised of men and that men commit murder and other violent crimes 10 times as often as women. But it's not that simple.

And help explain why. Let's hear Professor Steve Jones from Gresham College, break it down.

Steve Jones : The murder rate by men is 10 times what it is by women. And that 10 times difference is universal. The murder rate across the world varies by a hundred times from Singapore, where it's very low to Honduras, where it's a hundred times more common, but it's still a 10 times difference between men and women.

For example, in the city of Detroit, we have exactly the same pattern, a 10 times difference, a peak at the age of 25. So you might say, well, here we have the gene for murder. For crime, and you'd be absolutely right. You definitely do have the gene for murder and for crime. But hang on a minute, look at the vertical axis.

The murder rate per million per year in Detroit goes up to a thousand. The murder rate per million per year in the United Kingdom is between 20 and 25. It's come down from these figures now. So what that's telling you? Is that a particular gene predisposes those men, as we call them to violence, but only manifests itself in a certain environment.

If you're in an environment like Detroit where you're surrounded by poverty, by drugs, by gangs, by. Police brutality, all these things, then there will be a massive murder rate if you are in somewhere like Britain, and even more so in Singapore, which is a relatively, relatively equitable society, that's much more likely.

So we've got a situation then that some people, because of their own heritage, are more, uh, uh, at more danger of becoming murderers and being murdered because of the environment in which they live.

David DesRoches: The environment matters. That's a big deal, right? So if that's a big part of solving this piece puzzle, how do we make better environments for everybody? Well, for starters, what if war was obsolete? What if war didn't exist? What would the planet be like? How would that change our environment? What would I be like?

Or, or you or them? Would we finally just be us? One thing that came up time and time again throughout the Peace Summit was demilitarization, and to get us up to speed on what that might look like. Here's David Fox from the podcast Under the Shadow.

Michael Fox: It is a windy afternoon, dark clouds rolling overhead, and on the eastern most side of this plaza, going up these stairs is this huge yellow orange building that almost looks like a Castle Costa Rican flag.

Flying overhead this decades ago was a military barracks. It was home to. The Costa Rican military today, it is the National Museum of Costa Rica, because of course, 75 years ago, Costa Rica abolished its military here.

You know that one idea demilitarization has been a point of pride and admiration inside and outside Costa Rica for the last three quarters of a century.

This is the so-called country of peace in the hemisphere, right? The quote, Switzerland of Central America. It promoted the Central American Peace deals of the 1980s. It became the headquarters of the United Nations University of Peace Museums elsewhere often remember the crimes and the horrors of the past to ensure they never repeat Here.

Costa Ricans and this museum honor this memory of peace. The destruction of the wall symbolizing the end of the military,

David DesRoches: but demilitarization in Costa Rica has not been perfect. The United States has provided the country with a security guarantee, and its police force is pretty militarized, so it's not a perfect solution, but, but still, when I think about how I would feel living in a country that didn't have a military, maybe there's some kind of subconscious effect going on there.

So with this in mind, I asked chat, GPT to take a crack at analyzing this idea. This is what I asked. Is there a similar psychological effect that one might experience in regular day-to-day life that is analogous to how one might feel living in a society that has been demilitarized? And the response was pretty great.

It mentioned things like not locking our doors and how that enhances trust or, or walking down a dark alley at night. It might seem scary, but. You gain confidence if you do it and nothing happens, which is actually the most likely outcome. Statistically speaking, it's like the absence of military power can foster a sense of idealism and hope.

But the key to sustaining that hope and by extension peace is exactly what Professor Jones was talking about earlier, the environment where we live, our culture, society, our laws, et cetera. Our environment needs to reinforce that belief. Yeah. Otherwise we become overwhelmed with fear, which never leads to anything good.

Here's Chatt T's final thought on that question.

Chat GPT: Living in a demilitarized society is not the same as being defenseless. It's more like choosing cooperation over domination, and that carries both psychological benefits like trust, moral clarity, and peacefulness, but also subtle strains like vulnerability, reliance on others, and uncertainty in a crisis.

David DesRoches: Look, I, I, I get it. The reality of modern life makes something like this seem almost impossible. I mean, even while the Peace Summit was happening, there was an Israeli attack in Lebanon.

Martha Radditz : Tonight, shock Waves in Panic across Lebanon. After a stunning, unprecedented attack, both widespread and personal, thousands of pagers belonging to Hezbollah militants exploding simultaneously, leaving at least 2,800 wounded, including civilians, and at least nine dead, including a child.

The wireless devices

David DesRoches: and throughout the Peace Summit, an event with the sole purpose of spreading the peace movement. Even there, people got angry when they heard the news, but a lot of people were already angry about the wars in Ukraine, in Sudan, but especially in Gaza. And then this happened.

Moderator: It is still a pleasure for me to introduce professor Dr.

Ine Ale, a Palestinian Canadian physician, human rights advocate, and a five time noble peace prize nominee

David DesRoches: as they're announcing the panelists for a session called Focus on Gaza. Dr. Aleh walks across the stage. He takes a seat next to the other panelist. As he's walking his photo appears on the massive screen that's on the wall behind the stage.

And right underneath his name is the flag of Israel. You could hear the crowd murmuring, gasping. The woman sitting next to him, Joyce Uni, also Palestinian, leans over to Dr. Abule and points at another screen. Off stage, he seems dumbfounded as he's still being announced. He gets up, he walks backstage and he's talking to somebody on the production team.

Moderator: Today, more than 50 members of his family have been killed during the ongoing genocide in Gaza. Dr. Bullish continues his works as a professor at the Dala Laup School of Public Health at the University of Toronto. Thank you. The

David DesRoches: woman announcing him has no idea what's going on. So Dr. Aal tells her,

Moderator: yeah.

Oh my God.

Izzeldin Abuelaish : Who? I dunno.

Moderator: Yeah. Yeah, we, we will be looking for a correction.

David DesRoches: After all the panelists have been announced and are on stage. Joyce Looney speaks up.

Joyce Ajlouny: Did you want to add, address the mistake and uh uh, I think that

Izzeldin Abuelaish : address it very quickly so we can Thank you so much. I think I'm not against anyone but my identity.

My life, I am Palestinian. Even mistakes. How many mistakes can we commit in life? Even, even in the presenting me to forget to add Palestinian flag, and I believe it should be deleted from the beginning, the record. It should be fixed, immediate because mistakes are to learn from them and it should be corrected.

Joyce Ajlouny: I second that. Um,

David DesRoches: throughout the summit, people were expressing strong opinions about the need to stop the war in genocide and Gaza. Then something like this happens, which in the long run might seem silly, but when it happened in that moment, in that place with these people. Introduce yourself to me and, uh, it was something painful.

Sarita Nagazar: Ready? Yeah, go ahead. Uh, my name is Sarita Nazar. What else would you like me to say? I am a biology major at Quinnipiac. I'm a senior. I'm Danielle Bernie. I'm a sophomore political science major at Quinnipiac. We spent, at the beginning when they were introducing him a good five minutes explaining, uh, his situation and the amount that he has lost.

He has lost his daughters, his nieces, over 50 family members, and then. When they show his picture on the slide, they have an Israeli flag, and he then took another moment to say, you know, my identity is Palestinian. That's something that cannot be taken away from me. It's who he has been. It's hasn't who he's always been, and that will never change.

Danielle Burney: I mean, it's like Sarita said, they spent this whole time at the introduction of the conference. Explaining who he is, validating his purpose for being here, and then explaining how this nation has routinely violated him and stripped him of his most basic rights and just everything he lives for. They ripped it away and then they proceed to introduce him with that flag.

And it's, it's a mistake that never should have happened at a peace conference nonetheless. That mistake never would've happened. They never would've had a Ukrainian speaker come out with the Russian flag. That mistake wouldn't have happened. I mean, I grew up around the Middle East. I spent four years in Israel between Jerusalem and living in directly the area of conflict, and then moving to Israel near where the iron domes were set up on the beaches of Alia.

It's, you see that suffering firsthand. You see how. They're fighting for their most basic rights and just for them to spend this whole time again validating him, just to violate him all over again in front of a conference of his peers and in front of strangers, in front of people who have come to listen to his story.

They have brought themself down and every time they have brought up how he is. This speaker who has gone through such a great suffering and how he is here to share this story and then something like that happens, accident or not, things like this are, should have been checked time and time again. These are trials

David DesRoches: philosophy, professor Nat Baki, overhears the students, and I can see on her face that she wants to jump in.

Right. Like,

Anat Biletsky: can I put in for a second please? I started crying when I saw it, but it's bullshit compared to the people being killed. So my husband, who's the ultimate cynic, just wrote me. So A is, we've known Aash for a long time, ever since his daughters were killed actually. And we're finally saying Abu is successful, so to speak.

He's got this whole auditorium and I've been, I've spent the last two days. Measuring. That's not fair on my part. Measuring how many times are they going to mention Palestine? How many people? And it's more than I had thought. I have never been at an at, at an event that is not ahead of time dedicated to the Palestinian cause, where it's come up starting from Jeffrey Sachs.

Jeffrey Sachs sat up there and said, this is state terrorism. None of the other. Guys didn't either, did the laureates, you know, and they all, they give credit, they say what they believe, but then they say, yes, it's the whole world or stuff like that. There's all, all, all these, um, mushy things going on. And this was so strong and you got all the, all the laureates up there to put out a, uh, declaration saying we were wrong.

So, so it, you use the formalities to somehow get people aware and awake.

Chat GPT: That's such a great point.

David DesRoches: The formality she's talking about happened the day after the incident. That's when all the Nobel laureates were present at the conference. They all got on the stage and they apologized to Dr. Awes. Here's that moment, which starts with Nobel laureate Les Sathi calling him to the stage.

Kailash Satyarthi: May I also call Dr. INE ales? Please come here. We wanted to invite you with lot of love and compassion and respect. Please come.

Izzeldin Abuelaish : Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.

Kailash Satyarthi: Dear friends, while we stand here as the group of Nobel Laureates with Professor Dr. Ales,

we have a deep feeling. We feel like we are the father or mothers of three innocent girls. Beson Meyer and I, we feel that we are the uncle of a little girl. No, we also feel that. We are the members of the family of 50 Other people. They were all innocent. Our daughters were innocent, but they were killed for nothing.

And this is something we wanted to stop. We wanted to end. This is also a moment for reflection for us. Because we embody the spirit of peace and the spirit of this great summit, and I hope you will join with us in this sentiment that they are our daughters and all the daughters and all the sons who are being killed in Gaza or anywhere in the world.

Are like our sons and daughters and ER sisters and Inger brothers. There is a man standing and I feel proud to be standing by him. He was born in Palestine, but he was the first doctor, medical doctor to serve in the hospital in Israel, and despite all the loss in his life. He's still standing for compassion, for Humanity.

For Peace, we salute you, doctor, and for yesterday's episode. We know what happened, why and how it happened. We don't want to get into the detail on behalf of all of us if you allow. I sincerely apologize you doctor. You felt hard and many people sitting here felt the same, but we have to rise above that.

We cannot restore your identity, your dignity, your title, but what we can say that we are one of you. You are one of us.

David DesRoches: Thank you.

Kailash Satyarthi: Thank you for being here.

David DesRoches: Dr. Abba seemed visibly moved by the gesture. He then took a moment, gathered himself and said this,

Izzeldin Abuelaish : it's a moment where we can send a message to the Palestinian people, to the people in Gaza under fire, under attacks that you are here supported.

And you are in our hearts, in our minds. The Palestinian flag is carried by each of you. The Palestinian people are not just numbers, they are people like you. So I want each of you to zoom in to put himself in the possession of the Palestinians in the Gaza str, who are struggling and fighting just to survive.

They are closer to death than to life. For me, Palestine is in my heart. It's painful, but in spite of that, all of the challenges we are facing, we are a determined nation. Nothing can stop us from achieving our rights. The most holy thing in the universe is a human being and the freedom killing one as if we killed the world.

Saving one as if we save the world. We need to stand for saving life. We speak about bees Freedom. Freedom must not stop at the borders of the Palestinians. The Palestinians. Freedom is your freedom. Stand for the freedom of the humanity and the Palestinian people and that the peace we are looking for, that's what we want.

Peace we are talking about is not just a word. Peace means the freedom. Peace means justice, means equality and dignity, and that's what we need to act for. I promise you. I promise you I will continue. I will continue to carry the spirits of my daughters to be injected, to be injected a transfused. Into a vein of hope of peace, justice, and the freedom for all in our world.

God bless you.

David DesRoches: That's why AAT KY called this incident of victory. Here's a man who's lost 50 family members during this year's long conflict with Israel, including three daughters. And not only is he still standing, he's fighting for peace for all of humanity. Justice for all people and freedom for everyone, not just for Palestine, but for everyone.

Because as he pointed out, and as the Nobel Laureates also pointed out, we are all Palestine. We are all fathers and mothers and brothers and sisters of children murdered by war around the globe at the same time. We are all Israel. We are all America, and Russia and China. We are all of those things and we're something else too.

We're human beings and this idea about justice and how it's inextricably woven into peace. That's for the next episode.

Leymah Gbowee : We should always have time for justice and we're injustice thrive. There can be no peace.

David DesRoches: Thanks for listening to Dismantling the Divide, which is reported, produced, edited, and hosted by me, David DeRoche.

The podcast is a production of the Quinnipiac University podcast studio in partnership with the Albert Schweitzer Institute. To learn more about this podcast, you can go to quinnipiac podcasts.com/dismantling the divide. To learn more about the podcast studio at Quinnipiac, go to q u.edu/podcast. You can also find us on social media at QU podcasts.

This was the Woes of War. Up next, our final episode in the series. The power of justice.

Wally Brown: Anything that, uh, an individual did against another clan family, it made the whole clan, his clan responsible to make all the restitutions and that that would be required. And they call that in Navajo, they call it None.

Stay with us.